Advice needed on DM-player conflict (long)

[TrizzlWizzl]

Idea 4 (my favorite): Permanenced Protection From Arrows Spell at 20th Caster Level

Well... thing is, the original poster was playing RttToEE, which doesn't have any 20th level casters in it [flip, flip]. Nope. Don't see any.

Instead of unfairly nerfing the archer, I would go with the tools already included with the module (as a player, if I'm playing a published adventure and the DM just power-ups the foes to decrease my efficacy I'm going to be a little pissed off). I have a theory that your (shilsen's) DM is in fact a bit lazy and hasn't really done his "homework", that is to say: taken a fair bit of time before the session to go over his NPCs abilities, with an eye towards maybe decreasing the archer's deadly's efficiency.

Let's see... [flip to random NPC]

Okay. Here we go. I don't want to give too much away, but it looks like a lot of these cultists have some kind of summon monster spell. Hey shilsen, have you even had a monster just pop up right beside you and start harrassing you as you tried to fire your arrows? A lot of these guys also have command. You can't really fire your bow if you're running away from battle ("flee!").

Basically, I see nothing wrong with using a creature or NPC's spells or abilities to address PCs doing tons of damage. Is your DM using the NPC's "buff" spells and items (like potions, wands, etc.)? I just saw one NPC with a potion of blur. Something tells me your DM hasn't (or won't) implement it. Is your DM using sound combat tactics (like using 'fodder' to charge your fighters while casters stand back and address 'artillery' foes such as yourself and your wizard/alienist)?

Most importantly: has your party ever had a member die? Drop below zero hp even? If not, I'd say your DM definately isn't doing his homework. Flipping through the book I see plenty of ways to combat high-level archers.

shilsen... if you give me an example from your RttToEE game where you kicked absolute ass, maybe I (or someone else) can give examples of how the monsters/NPCs could have found different tactics to provide more of a challenge (which, who knows, maybe your DM will read and learn from).

 

[shilsen]

Mark - Always happy to make someone smile. And I didn't even mention the animated rug that almost smothered three PCs

Shallown - Sounds like that archer and mine are long-lost twins! I actually like the idea of switching PCs between players for a session, partly because that would also be a good roleplaying challenge, but unfortunately I don't think anyone'll go for it. I'll try out the idea, however.

Frostmarrow - That's essentially my beef with the entire situation. I figure I'm pretty good at judging balance issues even on paper, and I know the other party members have capabilities that aren't being used, which put them streets ahead of my PC in different areas. But since they don't use them effectively, I end up being penalised for having an effective character. My PC's the only one in the party, for example, who doesn't have a single spellcasting level, while everyone else has respectively 3,8,9, and 9. That's a lot of firepower - if used rightly.

 

[shilsen]

The Sigil - Thanks for the sugegstions. No "sorry" needed. As I'd mentioned in the original post, I already sugegsted to the DM that I give him some suggestions, but he didn't want any. I know it's a little strange to make suggestions how to challenge your own PC, but I was getting tired of complaints about the PC.

TrizzlWizzl - The summon monster thing has never happened. Blur is one of the first things that came to mind for me, but I don't think I ever saw that used either. Some of the NPCs have recently started using buffing spells, so they're getting better. But my DM could defnitely use some work on the tactics. My PC does get targeted once in a while, but I don't think I've ever seen the alienist specifically be targeted, which is somewhat weird considering he's the obvious spellcaster in the group. And we've had only two PCs die in all this time, although a few have dropped to negatives (albeit it's a rare event). Since you asked for an event where Eranilor kicked ass, here's one:


Warning....RttToEE spoilers below
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I think the big event that triggered complaints about the PC was a recent fight we had with a bebilith. The creature had been tearing through the Temple and we'd eventually tracked it down. It took a little damage from the mage's spells, and tried to circle around behind us. We realised that and headed in what turned out to be the right direction, and the kender, scouting ahead with a potion of darkvision, warned us that it was waiting for us. The cleric cast a light spell on a coin and threw it down the corridor, to illuminate the bebilith some 60 ft ahead. To my surprise, it just stood there waving its pincers at us. The rgr/cleric fired a searing light at it that just grazed it (low dmg) and I took the opportunity to fire off three arrows. All three hit, the last criticalled, and it dropped dead. End of story. The other players claimed it was anticlimactic, but it's hard not to be anticlimactic with sitting ducks at 60 ft

 

[Xahn'Tyr]

a 10th lvl character consistently doing 40 pts of damage in a round and being able to hit ACs in the 40s on a good roll,

This is not at all out of line for 10th level. In fact, it seems a bit on the low side in my experience. A fireball would average 25 points per target, if you hit 4 targets and 2 save, that's 75 points of damage right there.

A wooden shield with Spikes and the Expert shield charge (or Rhino Hide) is going to do a minimum of 34-44 points if the charger has an 18 Strength going.

A strong fighter with a keen Falchion and some crit feats should also be racking up that much fairly easily (esp. with Power Attack after True Strike).

As for hitting 40+ AC, tell the rest of your party to invest in some potions. True Strike is only 50gp and a potion belt (or Haversack) makes it a free action to prepare. So when you've the action to waste, AC is not really an issue.

If you are outdamaging the melee types, the the Greater Magic Weapons should be going on the melee types. If your clerics have enough GMW for everyone, then your DM is letting you sleep WAY too often.

Anyway, if you are that much stonger than your compatriots, the problem is more with them (and the DM). From what you've presented here, your character does not look at all out of line for his level.

 

[hong]

Frostmarrow - That's essentially my beef with the entire situation. I figure I'm pretty good at judging balance issues even on paper, and I know the other party members have capabilities that aren't being used, which put them streets ahead of my PC in different areas. But since they don't use them effectively, I end up being penalised for having an effective character. My PC's the only one in the party, for example, who doesn't have a single spellcasting level, while everyone else has respectively 3,8,9, and 9. That's a lot of firepower - if used rightly.

There's nothing in the book that requires everyone must research and use the optimal tactics for their character. A lot of people play just to relax and have fun kicking monster butt -- me included. I know that when I took my martial artist/shaman/blade dancer through RttToEE, I was less minmaxed than some other characters in the party -- like the wizard with save DCs of 21+ for his spells, or the ranger/rogue/ninja spy with 18 Str, TWF and a ring of invisibility, for example. I would say that if five people in the group aren't particularly fussed about tactics and strategy, and one person is, perhaps the one person should cut the others some slack.

Besides which, it can be disadvantageous to be the most badass character in the party. In the last RttToEE session before I had to leave, one guy made up a minmaxed archer much like yours. He was going great, until he decided to do a full attack on one of the head honchos in the Outer Fane. The head honcho didn't like all those arrows coming at him, and replied with a disintegrate spell, save DC 26. Poof, no more minmaxed archer.

 

[shilsen]

Xahn'Tyr - That's about how I see it. The GMW spells are also going on the melee combatants, so we're balanced where that's concerned. With two clerics in the party, it's not difficult to cover everyone. As for the sleep thing, we haven't lost our beauty sleep in a while.

hong - Leavng aside the whole question of why someone in the adventuring line of work wouldn't want to be as effective as possible, my complaint wasn't about the fact that everyone else wasn't optimising their characters. I really don't care what someone does with his character. But I do have issues when people don't optimise their characters, expect them to automatically be as powerful as they want, and then tell me that my character is overpowered, and that archery is broken, and that I should retroactively change my levels. As for the risk of being the party badass, I'd say being in a temple run by insane clerics who can summon up demons has put me over the "no risk" margin already Plus, I don't see how any archer can ever be more of a badass than a mage of equivalent level.

 

[hong]

hong - Leavng aside the whole question of why someone in the adventuring line of work wouldn't want to be as effective as possible,

Because it's not fun. "But it's not supposed to be fun", I hear you say.

my complaint wasn't about the fact that everyone else wasn't optimising their characters. I really don't care what someone does with his character. But I do have issues when people don't optimise their characters, expect them to automatically be as powerful as they want,

Their characters probably are as powerful as they want. If they weren't powerful enough, they'd be more optimised than they are now. It's just that their threshold of "powerful enough" isn't quite as demanding as yours.

and then tell me that my character is overpowered,

If the consensus among the other players is that your character is overpowered, then by definition, it is. It really doesn't matter that in some theoretical party with theoretically minmaxed characters, your archer wouldn't be overpowered. The fact remains that your character is hogging the limelight _in your party_ and this is causing rifts with the other players.

Now I may be wrong, but that's how I'm reading things. The issue now is how to deal with these rifts. It seems that your DM is aware of the problem, and that's why he's taking steps to curb your character's powers. I would suggest working with him on this issue, rather than trying to defend your character's honour. Also, you could try giving tactical tips to the other people in the group, if you believe they're lacking on this. Group harmony is a Good Thing, and should be preserved.

and that archery is broken, and that I should retroactively change my levels. As for the risk of being the party badass, I'd say being in a temple run by insane clerics who can summon up demons has put me over the "no risk" margin already Plus, I don't see how any archer can ever be more of a badass than a mage of equivalent level.

In your group, however, it appears that this is already the case. But again, I could be wrong. Can you name situations in this campaign where the wizard (or any other PC) has single-handedly turned the tide of a battle? Or has that task usually fallen to your archer?

 

[Mortaneus]

Having run a Planescape game under 3e with a truly monstrous archer in the party, I feel the need to interject.

Despite their best efforts, 3e still suffers the classic problem of certain character types being the most powerful at certain levels.

Basically, the most powerful classes during various level ranges fall as follows, from what I've seen:

1-4: High strength melee monsters rule here. During this level span, merely hitting the opponents can be difficult, and with only one attack per round, you need to make them count. Strength is by far the most important asset for dealing damage at these levels, most magic weapons being out of reach.

5: Mages. Fireball. Nuff said.

6-10: Archers. They've just gotten their second attacks, the cleric and mage both have greater magic weapon to buff them with, bracers of archery become readily available within the budget, and they've probably started a prestige class. Rapid shot just compounds the problem. I ran into this during my planescape game when Samir, the archer, was dealing out over 60% more damage on average than the axe monster dwarf. Not only was his total damage bonus higher, but he hit a HECK of a lot more often.

11-14: The classes are mostly balanced in this range. The only ones that really stand out here are the Cleric (Harm and Heal), and the Monk, who can have a truly obscene AC by this point.

15+: Spellcasters. Esp mages and sorcerers. You can guess why.


To sum up, at the level you're at, your character IS the most powerful character in the party. It's standard for the archer to be the true death machine at those levels. Once you hit about level 11+, though everyone else catches up. The fighters get a third base attack, narrowing the gap caused by rapid shot, and everyone is starting to drip magic weaponry, making up for the obscene bonuses you're getting from bracers of archery, point blank, and the like. Wait a few levels. It'll balance out again.

 

[Varius]

just tell the DM "screw you buddy". Ask him how much experience he has in 3rd edition. Now ask him if that is enough to asses how a thing is "broken".



Everyone complained about my characters saying that they were overpowered or "powergamed". The problem isn't the charater I made, but how I played him. Give a new person a Min/Maxed power character and they wont understand half of it. Now give the character to an experienced player. The character probably will be much more powerful than expected. Tell the players and DM to make things as strong as you are, not making you as weak as they are. Tell them to be fair.

Then, if all else fails, ask to make a melee fighter. Make the craziest fighter they have ever seen. Ask for smakdowns on the boards. Do so much damage that they will beg you for your archer back

 

[hong]

just tell the DM "screw you buddy".

Wow.

Ask him how much experience he has in 3rd edition. Now ask him if that is enough to asses how a thing is "broken".

Pulling rank in a social get-together is dumb. Pulling rank against the DM is dumber.

Then, if all else fails, ask to make a melee fighter. Make the craziest fighter they have ever seen. Ask for smakdowns on the boards. Do so much damage that they will beg you for your archer back

Wow.