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Advice on handling a large, hostile army

Black Omega

First Post
Doing a battle more abstract is fine, really. You can just say 'this is happening here, this is going on here.' and let the PC's actions effect how the battle is going. The PC's can directly effect one place at a time but if the Horde has baddies they can't go toe to toe with, they won't be able to stop the assault themselves. Let attacks come in waves so tyhere are chances to heal a little or withdraw. If the PC's are known to the horde, then they'll zero in on whereever the PC's are quickly with their best.

Don't sweat fireballs or cloudkills. The bad guys want to see where the wizard is and nuke him above all others. They can loose a hundred orcs to nail him.
 

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mseds99

First Post
thanks for all the great advice

I'm going to think on everything that's been said, and go from there. I'll let everyone know how it goes.
 

Gator

First Post
In case of battle break it down to rounds. For the Armies themselves roll a straight d20 for each army. Highest roll wins. Then roll percentage to see how much of the army is defeated/routed/captured. Continue till somebody loses.


It's the simplest way that I've found to do it.


Also, to get your party back on track and to discourage all out war or guerilla war I suggest you have the horde use advanced scouting parties consister of Ogre Magi, Gnoll Rangers, and bugbear fighters....maybe an Orc Shaman and a few Orcs as well if you're feeling particularly nasty.
 

s/LaSH

First Post
If it ever comes up, the method I used to adjudicate large-scale battles went like this: Unit of 20 soldiers = 1 soldier's stats. If a PC gets involved, there's a damage factor of 20 (times or divide). Suddenly an army of 200 men is 10 figures on a battlemat. It's still a little large, but a lot of battle is maneuvering for position - most of the time, they didn't fight, they advanced, circled around, that sort of thing.

Hey, it's not perfect, but when you say 'The archer squadron hits you. Gimme 20d8.' you get a whole new respect for mass combat.
 

green slime

First Post
I'd run it twofold:

Firstly, the entire army isn't all bunched together waiting for a cloudkill type attack. An army of 12,000 covers a fairly large area. And Spread out into smaller units covers an even larger area.

Secondly, the PCs can only cover a small area of the battlefield at a time. They will totally dominate that area where they are, but 11,800 of the horde don't stand still while 200 of their compatroits are getting slaughtered. Presumably the army has some way of communicating up and down the chain of command, and therefore has some method to communicate with the leader of the army. Who will respond with his heavy hitting goons once the PCs have blown there cover and revealed there whereabouts.

IMO, those goons united should be more than a match for the PC's. IF the PC's foresee this and setup traps for the goons individually then all fine and well. But after the mass slaughter of several villages, while PCs attempt to trap solitaire goons may cause them to reconsider and realise that time is of the essence. Especially if politics some into play. People of all varieties like to be on the winning side. And the sniping, guerilla tactics will not be seen as "winning". Loss of land means serious loss of revenue for Nobility, and every village less is means fewer levies.
 

Zappo

Explorer
For mass combats, I use statistics instead of rolling.

Zappo's Oversimplified D&D Mass Combat Rulez

First of all, units are treated as a single character, no matter how large. A unit must be comprised of characters with the same stats (to-hit, AC, equipment, HP...). A unit can only attack a single target at a time, be it a character or another unit. Units act simultaneously - that is, there is no initiative and each unit attacks before resolving damage.

Dealing damage

I assume that an attacking unit rolls an even spread of to-hit rolls. This means that if a unit with +X to-hit attacks a unit with Y armor class, the percentile of soldiers that will hit is

(105 + 5X - 5Y)%

, which, trust me, is less complex than it sounds because you basically figure what dice roll they need to hit and the chance they roll that high. Both calculations should be nigh-instantaneous in the mind of any D&D player. ;)

Chance to hit can't be less than 5% or more than 95% regardless of AC.

All soldiers that hit deal damage. Just take the average damage a soldier would deal.

Taking damage

When a unit takes damage from a character, resolve normally.

When a character takes damage from a unit, multiply the number of soldiers that hit by their average damage. For large units with ranged weapons, getting seriously hurt without rolling will put Holy Fear into the PCs fairly quickly. Remember that damage reduction applies multiple times, though.

When a unit takes damage from another unit, figure how much damage it takes. The damage is distributed so as to send as many enemies as possible to -1 HP. Extra damage is wasted.

Combat example

Unit A (40 men, with +2 to hit, AC 12, 4 hp, dealing 1d8 damage)
Unit B (20 men, with +1 to hit, AC 14, 5 hp, dealing 1d8+1 damage)

Unit A's soldiers need a 12 to hit unit B's soldiers. So, 45% of them hit. This means 18 men, who each deal 4.5 damage, for a total of 81 damage.

Unit B's soldiers need a 11 to hit unit A's soldiers. So, 50% of them hit. This means 10 men, who each deal 5.5 damage, for a total of 55 damage.

Unit B takes 81 damage, and one of their men can absorb 6 damage before being at -1, so 81:6 = 13 of them are down.

Unit A takes 55 damage, and one of their men can absorb 5 damage before being at -1, so 55:5 = 11 of them are down.

Where's The Randomness?

First of all, the generals of each side don't know the exact stats of their enemies. This is the "randomness", in that if you order to attack you may win, or maybe not.

Secondly, I haven't covered morale rules, which I feel should have some dice rolls because troop morale in fantasy heavily depends on heroic actions by single soldiers, and thus is less dependant on the laws of large numbers.


The main advantages of this system are its speed, upwards scalability, and easy compatibility with standard D&D rules. Notice that unless there are PCs involved, there is no need to roll dice. This is designed on purpose to allow the DM to quickly do combat that doesn't involve PCs in the background.

For its oversimplification, though, you may not want to use it for campaigns that revolve around mass combat.
 

drothgery

First Post
Of course, the alternative, especially if the PCs have been deeply involved with building and training their nation's army to counter this threat, is to let military tactics actually have a chance. Heck, 20 9th-level mages can hold off an army of mooks pretty much infinitely (split into shifts; 1 mage casts a wall of fire and maintains it, others lob spells over the wall, one teleports out to get food every once in a while, and one stays ready to zap anything that survives running through the Wall; use elemental substitution to stop enemies immune to fire damage).
 

Gargoyle

Adventurer
Providing a couple more "outs" might be appropriate, rather than just one. It sounds like they want guerrila warfare, so I'd give it to them:

They could use guerrila tactics to:
- assassinate the leaders of the horde, one by one.
- cut the supply lines of the army
- spread deceptive propaganda with the aid of illusions
- promote dissention in the ranks
- take on a large number of enemies in a narrow pass or other favorable terrain, then retreat and do it again
- rescue important prisoners from the Horde, such as the hostages that the Horde kidnapped from the neighboring kingdom in order to keep them neutral
- take hostages, like leaders or those that the leaders of the horde cares about

Unless they're wildly successful though, perhaps the horde will successfully invade, and they'll find themselves in an occupied country. That could be fun too.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
I use the following system again counting each unit as a single 'creature'. Each Unit is ranked accoding to its Unit rate

UR = (Size/100) x Unit Rank + HD-1
eg 100 undisciplined Humans = 1x1+1 => UR 2

UR is added to the stats of the base creature to determine the Unit stats. Units can fight independently or be lead by a PC if lead by a PC the Unit stats become bonuses to the PCs stats eg a PC with BAb 4 leading a Unit of 100 Undisciplined Orcs gets BAb +9
(Bab 4+3 (Orc BAb) + 2 (UR))

Rank system
1 Undisciplined
2 Green
3 Hardened
4 Veteran
5 Elite


An example

500 Hardened Ogres UR 19( =5x3+4 )
HP13000 BAb +27 (=8+19) AC face 35 (=16+19) AC flank 26
Will 20 (1+19)

A PC with BAb 4 leading this Unit would gain BAb +31
Base HP 26x500 = 13000. Flank AC = 75% of Face


Formation 100x5 Melee Damage 1400 (14x100)

You can set any formation you like (basically FacexFlank, I usually do battles no more than 5 deep. Ogres having Reach means that the first 2 Ranks can attack instead of just the front rank (thus +2 penetration). Damage is determined as average across the Face and/or Flank


400 veteran Orcs Archers UR 17 (4x4+1)
HP 1600 BAb 18 (1+17) AC 31 (14+17) Will 16 (-1+17)
Ranged Damage 2200
All Archers have potential to strike and thus Damage is for all members of the Unit not just front rank

Combat Sequence
1. Resolve Attacks as usual (BAb vs AC) including any Modifiers for Tactics. A Critical (roll Nat 20) earns a bonus roll of D20 added o total (ie becomes 2d20 instead of 1d20)

2. Determine Penetration = (Attack - opponents AC) + Reach bonus x 5
This gives a percentage used to determine effectiveness of Attack in dealing Damage. Penetration also determines the Morale DC

3 Damage = Total Damage x Penetration % NB Damaged does not always mean dead - just out of action (injured, stunned, dead etc DM to determine)

4. Opponent checks Morale Will save vs 10+Penetration/5
Penetration in this case = Attack-AC NOT the percentage

An Example
1a. Orcs attack Ogres
D20+BAb vs AC35 (17 to hit) => rolls 19 Attack of 36

2a. Penetration = Attack - AC 36-35 = 1 => 5%

3a. Damage = 5% of 2200 = 110

4a. Ogre Morale check Will save vs DC 11 (10+ penetration) => success

1b. Ogres Charge* Orcs => Charge is x2 Penetration
BAb 27 vs AC 31 = 4 to hit = > rolls 12 Attack of 39

2b. Penetration = 39-31 = (8+2(reach)) x 2 charge =>100%

3b. Damage = 100% of 1400 = 1400

4b Orc Morale check Will save vs DC 30 (10+Peneration) => fail Orcs break and flee

Other Notes

Leaders give Morale bonus = Level and can rally their unit each round (and thus stop them breaking)

A Flank is at 75% of Total AC, the Rear is at 50%

Disorganised Skirmishers do not work as a Unit and so do not get the benefit of UR (just straight base Stats - they do get the HP per Unit and Damage per (whole unit). They also cannot be flanked.

Various Tactics to be determined eg Charge x2 Penetration, Sheild Wall +4AC, Spear Wall 1/4 Penetration, Full Attack +4BAb
Higher Ground +2 BAb etc etc
 
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mmadsen

First Post
To summarize, I have a party of 13-16th level charcaters (VERY powerful 13th-16th level characters) who are high ranking officials in a new kingdom which they help establish. A vast horde of giants/ orcs/ogres, etc., etc., are being led by a few powerful creatures who would hand the party their collective behinds in a straight battle. The horde is on the move and is approaching the border of the newly formed kingdom.

You may get some ideas from:

How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?
How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress? (Volume II)
 

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