Aeon (updated 10/9/14)

[Baron Opal]

Well, the heart of the story is about whether a succubus can repent. Can a creature of pure evil freely and voluntarily change her ways? Ultimately, the story is about how far can a person can change. How they can become what they choose to be.

I agree.

It is interesting to contrast Nahael and the Adversary. It can be difficult to determine which one had a greater ability to choose their fate. That they choose similarly and that Nahael guided the Adversary towards the Green option is interesting.

Eadric has changed, as has Ortwine and Mostin. They have grown beyond how they initially defined themselves. I find Nwm's change to be more subtle. He has the benefit of changing in a way he anticipated or desired.

The Chesnites are screwed as they come across to me as exceptionally hidebound. It is understandable given the culture they have developed in. Any one of them would consume another if they had an easy chance. They will have the hardest time adapting to the new rules of the game, however.

 

[Salthorae]

They will have the hardest time adapting to the new rules of the game, however.

I'm not sure about that.

The Oronthonian side already had to go through one paradigm shift with the advent of Saizan that merged all the formerly heretical and orthodox sects back under the umbrella of "one" over-arching method of meditation on Oronthon and his will. Will they be able to deal with the change to "Green" that everything is going through and still maintain their allegiance to Oronthon? In the short term the edict of Tree is good as it helps in the battle against the Chesnites, but ultimately will the be able to adapt? Tree has cut them off from their own god's servants, unless those servants agree to be come Tree's servants. They have even lost the main opposition point to their god in the Nameless Adversary's transit to Hummaz, now there is no Person for the Eschaton to focus on, nor a jailer for those who opposed the divine Oronthonian will.

Wyrish wizards have had one paradigm shift to work through with the creation of the Clavgier and Enforcer. I'm not sure what the Clavgier just did, but I'm sure they'll be ok.

Those of the Viridecence that seems to be sweeping the universe ARE one of the major forces of change taking place. They are subsuming many of the fallen servants of Oronthon, Nahael being the first, but with Tree enforcing its will across the planes, there will be many more shifts than have already taken place.

The Chesnites are in an interesting situation, as they hadn't experienced their first real paradigm shift until Tree acted in the most recent post. I think they, in the long term, will be able to adapt better than the Oronthonian side as the viridescence to them would simply be another route to power and there are definitely ludjas who are more inclined to their bent who would be willing to help them adapt.

Admittedly there is Yew in the heavens of Oronthon as Eadric saw when he visited briefly recently, and Yew would have as much an interest in helping the Oronthonians adapt as any other Ludja.

I'm just trying to figure out what Oronthon is doing or thinking in allowing Tree to "steal" his servants and his adversary, wondering when Oronthon will flex his divine Will in this dynamic situation.

 

[Baron Opal]

The Oronthonian side already had to go through one paradigm shift with the advent of Saizan that merged all the formerly heretical and orthodox sects back under the umbrella of "one" over-arching method of meditation on Oronthon and his will. Will they be able to deal with the change to "Green" that everything is going through and still maintain their allegiance to Oronthon?

I'm just trying to figure out what Oronthon is doing or thinking in allowing Tree to "steal" his servants and his adversary, wondering when Oronthon will flex his divine Will in this dynamic situation.

I imagine that it will depend greatly on what Tramst and Eadric say to the laity.

If I remember correctly, Tramst is the Sela, the Voice of God, and Eadric is ... Something, the Breath of God. While Eadric has been fairly hesitant on preaching any dogma, its been documented that people have been watching him and following his lead. Tramst has been pretty inscrutible, leading through koan and parable. This leaves Eadric as probably the most approachable and comprehendable religious figure.

To me, Oronthon is allowing people the opportunity to have a faith that can be mystical (saizan) or one that focusses on the Now (Viridity) as well as their traditional monotheism. Wasn't it Eintharmon Thrice Magnified who waltzed into Nahael's prison, healed her and brought her to the Tree? This process seems to have been initiated by Deity rather than other powers.

I don't think anyone knows that, however, except us the readers.

Even so, the PCs seem to be willing to "play by the rules", whether it is for their benefit (Ortwine, Mostin) or society's (Eadric, Nwm). The Chesnite Immortals seem to have a disdain for "the rules" and opted for tying themselves to a power that by definition breaks or obviates the rules (cthonics).

You know, how is the Tree's edict going to effect Ortwine when she tries to return to Afqithan or her new pantheon's plane? "Faerie" as a power or realm has only barely been touched on it seems. We know a heck of a lot more about Hell or Dream than we do about Faerie. Hmm...

 

[tleilaxu]

Wasn't it Eintharmon Thrice Magnified who waltzed into Nahael's prison, healed her and brought her to the Tree?

rintrah rescued nehael in accordance with a 'particularly difficult' meditation of the sela. enitharmon 'three times thrice' magnified kicked the adversary out of heaven. if memory serves, it was all so long ago...

 

[Olive]

Okay, let me see if I have this right...

Your mission, should you accept it, is to provide such synopses for all the updates from here on in (and ideally all the updates in the last year or so...) Well done man!

Some of these fallen angels reject the trade-off. They reject both the submissive attitude of the celestial host, and the self-creation of the Adversary's followers. Perhaps they reject any system that requires such a trade-off; why should Hell be a consequence of individuality? They revolt against creation itself. These are the demons; the twice-fallen.

The polar opposite of Oronthon appears in the paradigm; annihilation itself, not a thing among other things, but something that is striven for, something which is reflected among the fallen, and especially the twice-fallen. Thought and language struggles to express this reification of non-being, but perhaps it is enough to say "Nothing Becomes."

This is true in the story but raises another issue - why was Hell (and the Abyss) the consequence of the claiming of individuality? Who not some alternate heaven? In other words, why was individuality corruption?

I suspect because Sep is working (or was working) within the paradigm of D&D and back when this was really all about the redemption of a succubus the issues involved were fairly standard D&D tropes. All of this has grown out of old Lady Despina after all. and then influences by Milton etc etc.

But if this were a brand new world, not from D&D what would the Angles look like if claiming individuality wasn't equated to a Fall?

 

[Baron Opal]

Well done man!

This is true in the story but raises another issue - why was Hell (and the Abyss) the consequence of the claiming of individuality? Who not some alternate heaven? In other words, why was individuality corruption?

Thank you.

It occurs to me that Nahael is "thrice-fallen". Although I think that is applied to the cthonics, she has rebelled against her paradigm three times: against Oronthion, the Adversary and the Abyss. Now, she's with the Green and seemingly content.

Is Sonellion so content? I think not.

 

[Siuis]

But if this were a brand new world, not from D&D what would the Angles look like if claiming individuality wasn't equated to a Fall?

I doubt that Angels seeking individuality can be anything BUT a fall, if only because that's how creation was set up.

A Fall is the rejection of Oronthon's will.
In accordance with His will, the angels were selfless.
Therefore, seeking to individuate is to Fall, because Falling was made part of the very definition of individuating, if only from the angelic perspective.

It doesn't even matter if the angels originally wanted individuation; you can replace that with anything and it still functions as a paradigm. For example;

A Fall is the rejection of Oronthon's will.
In accordance with His will, the angels were (lactose intolerant).
Therefore, seeking to (digest lactose) is to Fall, because Falling was made part of the very definition of (enjoying dairy), if only from the angelic perspective.

Also, I can only read the title and first line of Sep's moat recent post. I'm going to go cry for a while D:

 

[Moleculo]

This is true in the story but raises another issue - why was Hell (and the Abyss) the consequence of the claiming of individuality? Who not some alternate heaven? In other words, why was individuality corruption?

Isn't a rebellion against the divine being's will an instance of corruption? In a sense, the Nameless one corrupted the angels by showing them a way perpendicular to Oronthon's plan.

More over, what space would be set aside in the mind of a nearly omnipotent being for the disobedient? If there were no consequence for breaking the divine rules, on what grounds would Oronthon's will exist?

 

[Darkrok]

A Fall is the rejection of Oronthon's will.
In accordance with His will, the angels were (lactose intolerant).
Therefore, seeking to (digest lactose) is to Fall, because Falling was made part of the very definition of (enjoying dairy), if only from the angelic perspective.

This put me in mind of the following exchange between Brey and Tramst:

Originally posted by Sepulchrave II on 04-26-2004

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Mésalliance



BREY: Sela, what does it mean, to 'Fall?'

TRAMST: To Fall is to reject that which you have experienced to be true, in favour of that which you know, in your heart, to be false.

BREY: And what is truth?

TRAMST: That, unfortunately, is subjective.

BREY: Is it therefore possible for two people who share similar experiences, to have different destinies in this regard? By virtue of their different perspectives, may one Fall, and another not?

TRAMST: That is more common than one may at first think.

BREY: And when two irrefutable truths come into conflict? How does one then decide?

TRAMST: That, Brey, is why we practice Saizhan.

BREY: Hence Saizhan always reveals the correct truth.

TRAMST: No, Brey. Saizhan always determines the correct truth. The distinction is crucial.

BREY: Should one always choose the harder truth?

TRAMST: Often this transpires to be the case, but to adopt it as a premise leads to the Adversarial paradigm, which Saizhan teaches us is incomplete. Evidently, this is so, or the Adversary himself would not have Fallen.

BREY: I understand.

TRAMST: No, Brey, you do not. Which is why I am the master, and you are the student.

So for Angels whose nature is to be selfless and who experience truth in that selflessness individuation equates to a fall. The mistake that is often made is in extending that rule to individuals other than angels.

Isn't a rebellion against the divine being's will an instance of corruption? In a sense, the Nameless one corrupted the angels by showing them a way perpendicular to Oronthon's plan.

More over, what space would be set aside in the mind of a nearly omnipotent being for the disobedient? If there were no consequence for breaking the divine rules, on what grounds would Oronthon's will exist?

Unless Oronthon's plan was that the Adversary should rebel, in which case the Adversary, while still falling by rejecting that which he had experienced to be true would not necessarily be acting in a way perpendicular to Oronthon's plan.

 

[Siuis]

Quite. Your explanation is great, too. I'll have to remember that.

And isn't that what makes the Adversary a character rather than some exposition? We have Tramst, who we can empathize with, but Oronthon is sort of a background picture so we have a frame for celestials popping up. The Adversary is a really poor-off guy, rather than a background element. All he wants is to actively not be part of Oronthon's plan, and he's been screwed into having to do so-- No Matter What. I'd be vindictively evil too, just not nearly so good at it.

Edited for grammar.