D&D 5E After 2 years the 5E PHB remains one of the best selling books on Amazon

[Umbran]

So, if a shop doesn't explicitely say "We welcome guys in boots and metalband hoodies!" I shouldn't go there, or I should feel unwanted?

Ok, that was deliberately sarcastic.

Actually, the (admittedly overstated) example that came to mind was - let us assume you are a white heterosexual male. You are thirsty, and step into a bar to catch a drink - and you discover it is filled with African American lesbians. The bouncer may not eject you out of hand - you're technically allowed to go in, get a drink, listen to the music, and even shuffle around on the dance floor, but are you really going to feel like this is the place for you? Probably not.

I think it could act as an impediment, but it's more in the head of person who feel it and in most cases not on the part of the affiliated.

Eh. Right. Do you know the phrase, "blaming the victim"? It applies here.

"If they don't feel welcome, that's all in *their* heads! Even if I don't do much of anything to make them feel welcome."

And, you might want to consider that your position really amounts to *active resistance* to elements that would make them feel welcome. If folks suggest that adding elements to be inclusive might be a good idea, and you push back on that, then you are on the negative side of the equation, not the neutral point.

...but you are just as welcomed as the next person.

I think this assertion is false, and that the bulk of the evidence is that they historically have not been equally embraced by the community.

Shall we talk about, for example, how many years it has taken (and is still taking) for us to have proper anti-harassment policies instituted and enforced in convention gaming rooms? The very fact that we *need* to have that policy specially pointed out is an indication that we, as a collective overall community of gamers, lean a bit to the jerkish side and don't welcome all people equally. Some people have traditionally been considered second-class members of the community, and treated poorly, and still have to push to be treated with nominal respect to this day.

 

[evileeyore]

I don't want to venture into territory that breaks board rules, so I'll confine myself to this: from your point of view I suspect I'm more of a jackal (though not one with a twitter account) than an ignoramus.

If you also have no Tumblr account, then I won't lump you in with the jackals. They are repugnantly ubiquitous on Twitter and Tumblr.

With respect, you do realize that lack of explicit inclusion does act as an impediment to entry, right?

No. I've never felt excluded because groups, movies, shows, etc failed to go out of their way to include 'me'. If want to participate, I participate.

Actually, the (admittedly overstated) example that came to mind was - let us assume you are a white heterosexual male.

That mostly describes me. Go on...

You are thirsty, and step into a bar to catch a drink - and you discover it is filled with African American lesbians. The bouncer may not eject you out of hand - you're technically allowed to go in, get a drink, listen to the music, and even shuffle around on the dance floor, but are you really going to feel like this is the place for you? Probably not.

Depends on what definition of thirsty you are using.

Wanting a drink? I have no issue with getting a drink in a black gay bar. Do you know why? Because as long as I can get a drink, the bar is serving the function I entered for - getting a drink. Unless they become fractious over my presence, I would feel just fine.

If I stumbled in there seeking sexual companionship? Yup, not my bar. I'd ask for directions to one more accommodating, but I wouldn't kvetch about them not being 'welcoming'. I'd migrate to a bar that was.

 

[Hussar]

So, if a shop doesn't explicitely say "We welcome guys in boots and metalband hoodies!" I shouldn't go there, or I should feel unwanted?

Ok, that was deliberately sarcastic. I think it could act as an impediment, but it's more in the head of person who feel it and in most cases not on the part of the affiliated. If you felt unwanted and shunned most of your life, you'll have a harder time to feel welcomed. But it's somewhat unfair to say "this group shunned me" when it's not true, all that happened is the group didn't explicitely invited you, but you are just as welcomed as the next person.

Thing is, the shunned person really isn't as welcomed. The next person opens up every book and sees all sorts of heroic pictures of people who look just like him doing heroic things. But the person who really isn't being welcomed doesn't.

Granted it's MUCH better now than it was in the past but that doesn't mean we can't do better.

 

[evileeyore]

The next person opens up every book and sees all sorts of heroic pictures of people who look just like him doing heroic things. But the person who really isn't being welcomed doesn't.

I don't recall seeing that many pictures of 350 pound lardballs doing heroic things in the rpgs I've read... and yet when I roll into my FLGS, that's the predominant person I see.

 

[mflayermonk]

I don't recall seeing that many pictures of 350 pound lardballs doing heroic things in the rpgs I've read... and yet when I roll into my FLGS, that's the predominant person I see.

Hussar lives in Japan. Maybe he sees different people than you.
Or maybe his game store is filled with Sumo wrestlers.

 

[Maggan]

Sooooo ... I hear that D&D 5 is doing well on Amazon.

I conducted a poll at a Swedish rpg forum, asking what people have played over the year. With 103 responses, D&D was at 16%, Pathfinder at 9%.

Mutant Year Zero (a Swedish game) was at 25%, a Swedish fantasy rpg called Eon at 20%, Symbaroum (which is available in english but is Swedish from the beginning) is also at 20%.

So a strong showing for our locally produced games, followed by D&D 5 at double the amount of players as Pathfinder. D&D is traditionally not a strong game in Sweden, so I think both D&D and PF are doing very well here.

Admittedly a small sample, and people can choose several games they have played.

/Maggan

 

[delericho]

Sooooo ... I hear that D&D 5 is doing well on Amazon.

Isn't that a bit off-topic for this thread?

Yeah, it continues to do well. I must admit that I'm surprised by that, as I'd expected a significant dip and it just doesn't seem to have happened. Which is a good thing, really.

 

[Jester David]

Wanting a drink? I have no issue with getting a drink in a black gay bar. Do you know why? Because as long as I can get a drink, the bar is serving the function I entered for - getting a drink. Unless they become fractious over my presence, I would feel just fine.

If I stumbled in there seeking sexual companionship? Yup, not my bar. I'd ask for directions to one more accommodating, but I wouldn't kvetch about them not being 'welcoming'. I'd migrate to a bar that was.

But would you go back? Would you willingly patronize said establishment? Would you spend $150 there? Would you go there every week to hand out?

The difference is, nobody accidentally stumbles into game stores. It's always done on purpose. And a $10 beer is far easier to buy spontaneously than a $50 book. You're going to spend a lot more time thinking about that $50 and needing to be sold on the concept.
Game stores sell books by getting people to sit down and play. Organized Play, public games, demos, etc. Which people do not participate in if they feel uncomfortable.


A few months back, a good friend and a female friend were at the local university, hanging and talking comics. The series Saga came up as they were discussing titles, and my friend sold her on the series. Knowing a local comic shop nearby, she had the idea to pop over and grab the first couple trades. So off they went. Upon entering the shop, the clerk looked up and ask "So... he drag you in here?"
Right off the bat, the clerk was assuming:

a) my friend was the customer, not her
b) she was not a comic reader
c) she was their involuntarily​

Which is not an uncommon attitude or response in the hobby. Both comics and gaming. But doesn't get people back or make them feel welcome in the hobby.

Which is not some theoretically thing. People feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. They don't feel a part of the community. And that's on us to change.

I don't recall seeing that many pictures of 350 pound lardballs doing heroic things in the rpgs I've read... and yet when I roll into my FLGS, that's the predominant person I see.

And this was the exact reason the iconic occultist by Paizo was overweight:
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhmh?Meet-the-Iconics-Mavaro
View attachment 77178

When your whole life you seldom see people who look like you or you can relate to, being a part of the larger culture - let alone a hobby you enjoy - feeling including is amazing. There's some great stories about gamers of colour or alternative lifestyles who had powerful emotional reactions to being included.

F. Wesley Schneider, the editor-in-chief of Paizo has talked repeatedly about how impactful it was for him to read about a gay character in an RPG book that was presented positively and not as a joke.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Actually, the (admittedly overstated) example that came to mind was - let us assume you are a white heterosexual male. You are thirsty, and step into a bar to catch a drink - and you discover it is filled with African American lesbians. The bouncer may not eject you out of hand - you're technically allowed to go in, get a drink, listen to the music, and even shuffle around on the dance floor, but are you really going to feel like this is the place for you? Probably not.

I won't feel like it's a Place for me, because it's not. When a minority Group is gathering it's usually specifically because they want to be among their own kind for a while. However, when I'm in Sierra Leone, being the only white guy in the neighbourhood bar doesn't make me feel unwelcome because a bar in sub-saharan africa being full of black People doen't mean anything unusual.

 

[jasper]

...1. went. Upon entering the museum, the clerk looked up and ask "So... she drag you in here?"
Right off the bat, the clerk was assuming:
a) my friend was the interested not her.
b) he was not a museum goer
c) he was their involuntarily
Which is not an uncommon attitude or response in the ...industry.

The same STUFF happens everywhere. At the Car dealer where my Mom was going to buy the car. At the RC shop where my wife was the customer. At the sewing store where I was the customer. At the gun show, at armour tent, church bake sale, etc etc.
When your customers are generally X it a usual thing when the outliner shows up.