D&D 5E After 2 years the 5E PHB remains one of the best selling books on Amazon

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, I was about to say, in this case, it's absolutely a considered and intentional choice by a Chinese director, and the fact that Matt Damon is not Chinese is in fact a plot point. So, yeah, that's not a good example at all of the problem.

EDIT: I should point out, given that Matt Damon is in the movie, and given who isn't, the answer to the question "what is the wall keeping out" is probably "Ben Affleck".

As long as he doesn't ask anyone if they like apples.

Aside: I get the relevance of it being a Chinese director and studio, but him not being Chinese being a plot point means nothing. If the movie was made in Hollywood, that plot point wouldn't in any way save it. It is, in fact, part of why people are uncomfortable with it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

As long as he doesn't ask anyone if they like apples.

Aside: I get the relevance of it being a Chinese director and studio, but him not being Chinese being a plot point means nothing. If the movie was made in Hollywood, that plot point wouldn't in any way save it. It is, in fact, part of why people are uncomfortable with it.

And so exists the double standard.

 

[seebs]

As long as he doesn't ask anyone if they like apples.

Aside: I get the relevance of it being a Chinese director and studio, but him not being Chinese being a plot point means nothing. If the movie was made in Hollywood, that plot point wouldn't in any way save it. It is, in fact, part of why people are uncomfortable with it.

I think it depends a lot on the specifics of what the plot relevance is, and I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know. But I would definitely distinguish between "we put a white dude in because even though the character's Chinese, we wanted a big-name actor" (bad) and "the story has a white dude" (not inherently bad).

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Totes. Uninformed faux outrage is the most entertaining kind of outrage, IMO.

It is the driver of most internet traffic, well behind porn. But it lets you signal your virtue for all to see on twitter, etc.

Anyway, stunning to see D&D 5e dominate RPG sales on Amazon like that still. They did something right with this edition. Maybe more gamers came to the conclusion that endless booster books and books to help you use your other books since there are so many of them is not the ideal solution. Or maybe its just riding the popular wave. We will see. Hopefully 5e is still the edition in 5 or 10 years.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think it depends a lot on the specifics of what the plot relevance is, and I haven't seen the movie, so I don't know. But I would definitely distinguish between "we put a white dude in because even though the character's Chinese, we wanted a big-name actor" (bad) and "the story has a white dude" (not inherently bad).

There is a difference, sure. The second one should read, "the protagonist/hero is yet another white dude who saves the day." (Ambiguous at best)

the difference is a quibble. Whether the character was conceived of as white originally or not just isn't the point for anyone uncomfortable with the movie. Sure, it would be even worse if the character were originally Chinese and then made white, but no one saw the trailer and assumed that was what happened, and then got pissed. Folks saw the trailer, and needing no assumptions or even opinions on that, reacted badly to a story about a white guy saving the day on The Great Wall in medieval China.

plenty of folks probably thought it likely that the character was written Chinese and then cast white, but I doubt anyone assumed as much. I, for one, assumed it was written as a white dude from the start.

 

[Dire Bare]

Totes. Uninformed faux outrage is the most entertaining kind of outrage, IMO.

Not faux outrage. Misplaced outrage. The problem is real, but "The Great Wall" is not a good example of Hollywood white-washing. However, the marketing of the movie in the US actually WAS a good example of white-washing.

Haven't seen the film yet, but from what I've been told, Matt Damon isn't the "hero" or main protagonist of the film. However, you'd have to be forgiven if you got that impression from the US marketing.

Either way, a better example would have been Doctor Strange. Arguably Iron Fist, but I'm torn on that. While I don't care if characters look the same in live action adaptations, I get that many people do. OTOH, the point of him being a white kid is for him to be an outsider. An Asian American would still be just as much an outsider. The only reason for him to be white in an adaptation is "canon", which I think is a super weak argument in this case. The MCU is definitely its own canon, and they've already changed similar "canon". See, Doctor Strange's white Ancient One. Also, the guy playing the villain would have been a great Danny Rand.

I'm not happy with the casting decisions of "Doctor Strange", although I think Tilda Swinton will do an amazing job as The Ancient One. But white-washing her character for CHINESE audiences (instead of US audiences) is a sad ploy to have the film make more money overseas. Perhaps, from a business perspective, necessary . . . but I'm still disappointed.

I don't have a problem with Danny Rand in "Iron Fist" being white, as the comic book character is white. Iron Fist is representative of a whole genre of American film and TV, the white-guy ninja. And while that definitely plays into the discussion of white-washing, it's an example I have zero problems with. Had they cast him with an Asian actor, I would have been fine, but I think the TV series would have lost something integral to what Iron Fist is.

"White-washing" when casting TV and movies is a real problem in Hollywood, however, each project has to be judged by its own merits, it's never black-and-white (pun intended). A lot of folks do get all roused up without understanding why specific casting decisions were made. The "outrage machine" is also a real problem in American society today, IMO.

And, to get back on topic . . . . Ditto with diversity in D&D. Increased diversity is both a wise business decision and the "right thing to do".

 

[Imaro]

Either way, a better example would have been Doctor Strange. Arguably Iron Fist, but I'm torn on that. While I don't care if characters look the same in live action adaptations, I get that many people do. OTOH, the point of him being a white kid is for him to be an outsider. An Asian American would still be just as much an outsider. The only reason for him to be white in an adaptation is "canon", which I think is a super weak argument in this case. The MCU is definately its own canon, and they've already changed similar "canon". See, Doctor Strange's white Ancient One. Also, the guy playing the villain would have been a great Danny Rand.

I don't think Iron Fist really qualifies as whitewashing since Danny Rand (irregardless of why) has always been white... The ancient one, yeah not so much.
However for a prime example of white washing to the extreme one of the best and most recent examples was this movie right here...

EDIT: And for the record I do believe that's one of if not the major reason it flopped. There were active campaigns on FB, Twitter, etc. among minorities to boycott this movie and I believe it had a significant impact on how it ended up doing at the box office.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not faux outrage. Misplaced outrage. The problem is real, but "The Great Wall" is not a good example of Hollywood white-washing. However, the marketing of the movie in the US actually WAS a good example of white-washing.

Haven't seen the film yet, but from what I've been told, Matt Damon isn't the "hero" or main protagonist of the film. However, you'd have to be forgiven if you got that impression from the US marketing.



I'm not happy with the casting decisions of "Doctor Strange", although I think Tilda Swinton will do an amazing job as The Ancient One. But white-washing her character for CHINESE audiences (instead of US audiences) is a sad ploy to have the film make more money overseas. Perhaps, from a business perspective, necessary . . . but I'm still disappointed.

I don't have a problem with Danny Rand in "Iron Fist" being white, as the comic book character is white. Iron Fist is representative of a whole genre of American film and TV, the white-guy ninja. And while that definitely plays into the discussion of white-washing, it's an example I have zero problems with. Had they cast him with an Asian actor, I would have been fine, but I think the TV series would have lost something integral to what Iron Fist is.

"White-washing" when casting TV and movies is a real problem in Hollywood, however, each project has to be judged by its own merits, it's never black-and-white (pun intended). A lot of folks do get all roused up without understanding why specific casting decisions were made. The "outrage machine" is also a real problem in American society today, IMO.

And, to get back on topic . . . . Ditto with diversity in D&D. Increased diversity is both a wise business decision and the "right thing to do".

The problem with iron fist isn't about what ethnicity he is in the comics. I love the comics. It's a missed opportunity to tell the same story (American in a strange land, learns Kung fu, becomes mystical king fu hero) without the white savior/white kid becomes better at king fu than the Asians he is learning it from elements that make Iron Fist kindof a racist story to begin with.

As for The Ancient One, Swinton is fine, sure. I think she is really overrated, and she was the least engaging part of the trailers, IMO, but she won't ruin the film or anything. But how good she is at it just ain't the point. There are plenty of Asian actors and actresses that could do just as good a job, sans the whitewash.

And yeah, you articulated what I was trying to say with The Great Wall. It's only even misplaced "outrage" in the sense that the audience (who have no reason to suspect that he isn't the hero/protagonist of the story) hasn't seen the movie yet. And several Chinese Americans I know don't care that it's a Chinese director. That changes nothing, except that they are also disappointed with him and don't think his explanation is sufficient. Others disagree, and are only unhappy at the US advertisers. Either way, it's not even about "outrage". It's about continually pointing out something that needs to change. As Constance Wu put it, it's not about blame, it's about Awareness.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Guys. Guys.

I never said anything about Iron Fist being an example of whitewashing.

 

[Mistwell]

Just wandering in here, but just to point out:

The first post was about how nice it is that the D&D players handbook is selling so well.

The last posts seem to be about Bollywood, Hollywood, Inclusiveness something something?

I don't have a problem with discussion, but this seems a touch of an extreme shift in discussion. The phrase "Off Topic" does not even BEGIN to cover it.

So... Cool! It's nice to see an RPG doing so well in the common book market. I wonder if electronic books are shifting the numbers, or if they are included as well?

I've tried multiple times to guide things back to the topic. However, when the owner of the message board himself and the mods are participating in the extreme-off-topic divergence of the thread (despite the rules supposedly disallowing off-topic stuff in a thread), I throw up my hands and surrender. OK, if people want this to be a political thread despite it having zero to do with the topic, then I guess that's what it is. Because apparently the world needed yet another political forum!

Naw, I am not that cynical. I will try again.