D&D 5E After Tyranny of Dragons (OR: What to do with 15+ level PCs?)
So I'm about halfway through Rise of Tiamat, and I'm thinking about what to do after it finishes. I'd like to take the PCs up to level 20 because this is our first chance to find out how high-level play goes in 5E.
I'm debating between repurposing the Doomvault from Dead in Thay or trying to rework Out of the Abyss. (Note, I haven't had a chance to read either adventure in detail, so I just know the basics of both.) Both should require some scaling up to challenge a high-level party, so work should be about equal there.
* Which do you think would be easier?
* Which would fit better with the Tyranny of Dragons storyline?
If I do the Doomvault, I was thinking that during the mission to Thay, the Red Wizards could demand a favor in exchange for their aid in the fight against Tiamat and the Thayan Exiles: the services of an elite party to do a mission of their choosing, once the immediate crisis is over. But what would that favor be? Why would they want to send the group into the Doomvault, and what sort of things would be waiting for them there?
If I do OotA, I'm less sure of how to tie it to Tiamat. She's imprisoned in the Nine Hells, but isn't it mostly devils who want to keep her there or who want to get rid of her? What's her relationship to the demon lords? Could they have been loosed somehow at the same time Tiamat was summoned?
I'm debating between repurposing the Doomvault from Dead in Thay or trying to rework Out of the Abyss. (Note, I haven't had a chance to read either adventure in detail, so I just know the basics of both.) Both should require some scaling up to challenge a high-level party, so work should be about equal there.
* Which do you think would be easier?
* Which would fit better with the Tyranny of Dragons storyline?
If I do the Doomvault, I was thinking that during the mission to Thay, the Red Wizards could demand a favor in exchange for their aid in the fight against Tiamat and the Thayan Exiles: the services of an elite party to do a mission of their choosing, once the immediate crisis is over. But what would that favor be? Why would they want to send the group into the Doomvault, and what sort of things would be waiting for them there?
If I do OotA, I'm less sure of how to tie it to Tiamat. She's imprisoned in the Nine Hells, but isn't it mostly devils who want to keep her there or who want to get rid of her? What's her relationship to the demon lords? Could they have been loosed somehow at the same time Tiamat was summoned?
ExploderWizard
Hero
If you are looking for level 15+ adventure material then check out some of the Basic D&D Companion level modules. These were created for levels 15-20 or so.
sunrisekid
Explorer
OP, I don't have another idea for you but I am in a similar spot, figured I would add to the conversation. We are nearing the end of ToD, with limited prep time and irregular sessions. Here's what I have been considering, pending a conversation with the group as to what their preferences are.
If the players prefer keeping their characters then I'm probably going to do a high-level sandbox homebrew in some fashion. The suggestion of the Companion modules is a very good idea, as the stories were intended for this style of game. I seem to recall 4E and 5E DMGs mentioning that the adventures become more "international", if not inter-planar.
I don't see how I can avoid converting an older module. I can certainly improv low-level games, but I have never DMed a high level campaign in my 15 years experience, so I'm not confident I can pull it off.
CM1, Test of the Warlords, looks like a solid resource to get players into assuming the role of rulership. I imagine this as the groundwork for a highlevel homebrew sandbox. Some of the followup modules could be used, too.
Planescape looks very suitable for high-level play, but I imagine might take a lot more time (reading the setting, monster conversions, etc). Though I recall seeing a 4E adventure, written for high level characters, intended to introduce them to Sigil. Rather short but meant as a springboard for homebrew.
An "expedition to hell" to finish off Tiamat would be an amazing story to run, and possibly not more work than other options. The current MM has all the monsters ready to go, just requires some story prep. ToD indicates some of this already (Zariel wants Tiamat out of Hell, but Bel wants to stop Zariel), so intrigue and crazy combat in Hell's very colourful locales would be memorable.
Might convert Dead in Thay. This adventure sounds like an easy story to adjust for post-Tiamat circumstances. Eg, Thay already had invasion plans, PCs must interfere, etc.
Another option is converting the adventures from Dungeons of Dread, now handsomely re-printed in hardcover, and just going through them as one-off adventures.
[Apropo the PCs want to retire and play new 1st level characters, then I will run Against the Slave Lords and continue through the GDQ series.]
If the players prefer keeping their characters then I'm probably going to do a high-level sandbox homebrew in some fashion. The suggestion of the Companion modules is a very good idea, as the stories were intended for this style of game. I seem to recall 4E and 5E DMGs mentioning that the adventures become more "international", if not inter-planar.
I don't see how I can avoid converting an older module. I can certainly improv low-level games, but I have never DMed a high level campaign in my 15 years experience, so I'm not confident I can pull it off.
CM1, Test of the Warlords, looks like a solid resource to get players into assuming the role of rulership. I imagine this as the groundwork for a highlevel homebrew sandbox. Some of the followup modules could be used, too.
Planescape looks very suitable for high-level play, but I imagine might take a lot more time (reading the setting, monster conversions, etc). Though I recall seeing a 4E adventure, written for high level characters, intended to introduce them to Sigil. Rather short but meant as a springboard for homebrew.
An "expedition to hell" to finish off Tiamat would be an amazing story to run, and possibly not more work than other options. The current MM has all the monsters ready to go, just requires some story prep. ToD indicates some of this already (Zariel wants Tiamat out of Hell, but Bel wants to stop Zariel), so intrigue and crazy combat in Hell's very colourful locales would be memorable.
Might convert Dead in Thay. This adventure sounds like an easy story to adjust for post-Tiamat circumstances. Eg, Thay already had invasion plans, PCs must interfere, etc.
Another option is converting the adventures from Dungeons of Dread, now handsomely re-printed in hardcover, and just going through them as one-off adventures.
[Apropo the PCs want to retire and play new 1st level characters, then I will run Against the Slave Lords and continue through the GDQ series.]
Radaceus
Adventurer
I'd say, seeing as you are time poor, semi retire the group, as Collectors, Masters, Lords, Deans of Academy, heck, even as Tavern Owners of Waterdeep with mysterious wells in their locale...
or maybe even Pilots of Spelljammers, and roll up all new characters. Allow them to get involved in the moving and shaking of the campaign on their upper levels and to go off on new wild adventures all over again with the new characters.
or maybe even Pilots of Spelljammers, and roll up all new characters. Allow them to get involved in the moving and shaking of the campaign on their upper levels and to go off on new wild adventures all over again with the new characters.
I just ran across this interesting adventure on the DM's Guild:
DM's Kit: Palace of the Red Pasha
It's a 16th-level adventure designed to take place immediately after Rise of Tiamat. Not sure how high it's meant to go. The PCs travel to Calimport to investigate Severin's home stronghold. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it looks pretty thorough; it's 35 pages long.
DM's Kit: Palace of the Red Pasha
It's a 16th-level adventure designed to take place immediately after Rise of Tiamat. Not sure how high it's meant to go. The PCs travel to Calimport to investigate Severin's home stronghold. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but it looks pretty thorough; it's 35 pages long.
Awesome. This is exactly why I started this thread in the first place: a chance to gather solutions to the problem
Thank you!As it stands, my group voted to retire the characters (for now) and try Out of the Abyss. That means I have plenty of time to leisurely let solutions accrue here, and then choose among them when they're ready to go back to their Tyranny characters :-D
My experience so far is that 5th edition converts 1st edition material so easily it can be done on the fly but as already mentioned there aren't a terrible amount of modules that deal with 15+ level characters and there is a reason for that. At 15th level, your not really hero's anymore, your super heroes even in 5th edition. There isn't a creature in the Players Handbook that a group of 15th level character can't burn through.
What your left with is the oldest conundrum in the game, but also one that was actually addressed by 1st edition.
What it boils down to is that your players should be legendary heroes ready to take on the reigns of leadership. Its time for them to erect keeps, gather followers, create mage circles, start thieves guilds etc.. etc.. At 15th level what your looking to do is pull the game from the Indiana Jones style adventuring life and retire them to a life of politics, intrigue, and civilization building. Its there end game where they get to leave a mark on the world in a permanent way, their closing chapter where they get to create their legacy as characters.
In old school editions of the game their where a number of modules that effectively created the story situations to make that happen. The ones I have run, which I thought where good are as followed (in no particular order).
Test of the Warlords (CM 1): In this module the players effectively take up a King on his offer to claim land. They effectively become nobles, construct keeps, towns and live out the lives of noble leaders dealing with the politics, intrigue and potentially war of the land.
CM2: Death's Ride: In this adventure players again work for King Ericall though in this case they face ultra epic mega battles. This probobly would take a bit more prep, but their is a great back story and it does keep the game closer to more traditional D&D style of play.
CM9: Legacy of Blood: This is another take on empire building, but with a bit more adventuring style, its kind of a mix, though its one of those modules that offers a lot of fodder for creating your own adventures within the scope of a kind of mini campaign almost. There is a lot of great detail on individual places and characters.
What your left with is the oldest conundrum in the game, but also one that was actually addressed by 1st edition.
What it boils down to is that your players should be legendary heroes ready to take on the reigns of leadership. Its time for them to erect keeps, gather followers, create mage circles, start thieves guilds etc.. etc.. At 15th level what your looking to do is pull the game from the Indiana Jones style adventuring life and retire them to a life of politics, intrigue, and civilization building. Its there end game where they get to leave a mark on the world in a permanent way, their closing chapter where they get to create their legacy as characters.
In old school editions of the game their where a number of modules that effectively created the story situations to make that happen. The ones I have run, which I thought where good are as followed (in no particular order).
Test of the Warlords (CM 1): In this module the players effectively take up a King on his offer to claim land. They effectively become nobles, construct keeps, towns and live out the lives of noble leaders dealing with the politics, intrigue and potentially war of the land.
CM2: Death's Ride: In this adventure players again work for King Ericall though in this case they face ultra epic mega battles. This probobly would take a bit more prep, but their is a great back story and it does keep the game closer to more traditional D&D style of play.
CM9: Legacy of Blood: This is another take on empire building, but with a bit more adventuring style, its kind of a mix, though its one of those modules that offers a lot of fodder for creating your own adventures within the scope of a kind of mini campaign almost. There is a lot of great detail on individual places and characters.
You could take a leaf from pre-3e and have high level PCs engaged in territory development, rulership and war. The Rules Cyclopedia - http://www.rpgnow.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic?it=1&filters=0_0_0_0_0 - has very useable dominion & mass combat rules convertable to 5e.
I just wanted to drop a link to this thread, which discusses how to segue Rise of Tiamat into Scales of War (the latter would obviously need to be converted from 4E):
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?542110-Red-Hand-of-Doom-Rise-of-Tiamat-Scales-of-War
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?542110-Red-Hand-of-Doom-Rise-of-Tiamat-Scales-of-War
