Afterlife in Dungeons and Dragons

[Rae ArdGaoth]

I've been reading R.A. Salvatore's books, you know, the Drizzt books. (I think there are 22 now) and in one of them, in one of Drizzt's musings, he talks about the afterlife. He expresses his doubts about religion and whether there really is an afterlife and eventually discusses how faith has brought him to where he is and how he will continue believing in his faith no matter what. Something along those lines.

Here's my question: When you have clerics running around, shooting their divine powers into people all the time, when you have tangible healings and visible resurrections, when undead are as real a threat as wolves, how can you doubt in the presence of gods? In RL, atheists and agnostics (I think I have my terminology right) either deny or don't care about the existence of a god. I can understand this view point, as perhaps in their lives, no tangible miracles have taken place right before their eyes. Yet Drizzt Do'Urden has definitely seen miracles, obviously accomplished through deities.

Can someone elucidate this mystery for me?

 

[ph34r]

Maybe divine magic isn't any more different from the weave than arcane magic is? Maybe people have just created a false sense of where the magic comes from? Maybe they took old tales and over the years have came to believe them and associate facts with them?

 

[ptolemy18]

Maybe divine magic isn't any more different from the weave than arcane magic is? Maybe people have just created a false sense of where the magic comes from? Maybe they took old tales and over the years have came to believe them and associate facts with them?

That's certainly possible with some campaign settings. EGYPTIAN ADVENTURES in particular makes it explicit that the gods NEVER interfere with mortal affairs (or at least, almost never) and thus it's possible to have Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil priests of the same god ("No, you're wrong, Set is all about justice and honor!" "No, Set is about evil and vengeance!" (RELIGIOUS ARGUMENT ENSUES))

That's the kind of setting I generally prefer to play in. In an extreme case, one of the "secrets" might be that the gods don't exist at all, and divine spellcasters are just another type of arcane spellcasters who don't realize where their own powers come from.

However, I think the "default" idea of D&D3.0/3.5's Greyhawk (and Forgotten Realms, etc., although I don't know as much about that world) is that the gods are pretty active in the world. When high-level priests can use Plane Shift to go to their god's home plane, or summon a Greater Celestial Ally who will just tell them "Hey, man, Hieroneous thinks you're a heretic," then the existence of agnosticism, atheism and serious religious arguments "within the faith" is less plausible.

I prefer the "gods are more mysterious" type of world, personally.

Jason

 

[reason]

...

Yes, it's a problem; if you stop to think about it, a setting in which immortality is a given would have a radically different society, philosophy, etc to our own. That's why I prefer to run settings in which the afterlife is a whole lot more uncertain:

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In the Ammand, the Ammane breathed life into the world. Their breath was strong for the Ammanene, who live and live and live. We mortal Ammanders must make the best of our lesser gift of life, for we do not know whence we go after the weight of years has been lifted.

The Magi are said to have known the great mysteries of creation, even learning the secrets of death from far across the Unending Sea. This is lost with the Vanishing, yet I doubt the legends. Had the Magi known such truths, they would have abandoned their trading to bring enlightenment to all the mortal peoples of creation. What else could they have done? There are truths and there are Truths; the latter burn in the mind and steer the lives of men.

The Ammanene think they have found Truth here in the Enclave; that the dead, their beloved dead, dwell in peace in the Farthest. I have seen Visitors and Trespassers, seen the Farthest Library and the Farthest Graves, and I believe the Ammanene chase a noble dream born of guilt. Nothing more. Yet their forest shrines will prosper, and they will waste lifetimes in the service of memories and what might have been.

All too many - amongst the commoners, the priests, the sages - declare death to be the very end of a long Road. They do not see that there might be anything more beyond the last breath, but I cannot accept this. A Road cannot end: only cobbles and route markers can end. The Road continues for as long as the traveler carries it in his heart and sets one foot in front of the other.

The death of mortals will forever be the greatest mystery in all creation. It is a hardship, like so much of our lives, yet we must take heart. Each and every one of us will learn this great hidden Truth in the end.

--------

Reason
Principia Infecta

 

[Turjan]

Here's my question: When you have clerics running around, shooting their divine powers into people all the time, when you have tangible healings and visible resurrections, when undead are as real a threat as wolves, how can you doubt in the presence of gods? In RL, atheists and agnostics (I think I have my terminology right) either deny or don't care about the existence of a god. I can understand this view point, as perhaps in their lives, no tangible miracles have taken place right before their eyes. Yet Drizzt Do'Urden has definitely seen miracles, obviously accomplished through deities.

Can someone elucidate this mystery for me?

I think you are mixing two things up .

In my campaign, gods are not that active in everyday life as in standard D&D, so you might doubt their existence. Anyway, I went with the notion that they exist, but this has nothing to do with the question of afterlife . IMC, you should never ask a god a question about the afterlife, otherwise you touch a sore point. The ticket for the gate to afterlife is death, and gods are immortal, so...

 

[JustKim]

Perhaps Drizzt has stumbled upon the fact that, when you die in D&D, you become a petitioner on another plane who's often a completely different creature with no memory of life and little or no free will. This process less resembles an afterlife and more the creation of another creature resulting from your death. There is no heaven for Drizzt where he can glide about fulfilling every desire, being who he was in life. If he's unlucky, some plane-hopping adventurers will decide AngelDrizzt is in their way and kill him again, eradicating him completely.

What I find myself asking is how characters in D&D can value the afterlife when this is what's in store for them.

 

[Ed Cha]

Although often underappreciated, in reality, clerics act like gods in D&D. They heal, they raise people from the dead, they talk to the gods, etc.

 

[Edgewood]

I've been reading R.A. Salvatore's books, you know, the Drizzt books. (I think there are 22 now) and in one of them, in one of Drizzt's musings, he talks about the afterlife. He expresses his doubts about religion and whether there really is an afterlife and eventually discusses how faith has brought him to where he is and how he will continue believing in his faith no matter what. Something along those lines.

Here's my question: When you have clerics running around, shooting their divine powers into people all the time, when you have tangible healings and visible resurrections, when undead are as real a threat as wolves, how can you doubt in the presence of gods? In RL, atheists and agnostics (I think I have my terminology right) either deny or don't care about the existence of a god. I can understand this view point, as perhaps in their lives, no tangible miracles have taken place right before their eyes. Yet Drizzt Do'Urden has definitely seen miracles, obviously accomplished through deities.

Can someone elucidate this mystery for me?

I have had this discussion with many people on the paizo boards and was thinking seriously about the effects of the gods on the general populace IMC. It is hard to deny that the Gods exist in my game world. As you have said, it's hard to deny their existence with undead traipsing about, clerics raising people from the dead, etc, etc. However, I was tackling this issue from a different angle. I wanted to know, what was the social and psychological ramifications of a person (any person) being risen from the dead. I feel that the simple "lose a level" effect is not a price to pay after being brought back from the afterlife.

And, what impact does that have on the people around you? Imagine if certain people from our own world's past were brought back to life. I wanted death to have a more final impact on the world, and that invariably dragged into a discussion about how faith and gods are viewed and what motivates them to interract with mortals.

I suppose if we look at the pantheons of old (say the Greeks, for example), the legends and stories of the gods were part of the social fabric, so athiests and agnostics would be in very short supply. In this case faith is a matter of living.

 

[Ron]

Perhaps Drizzt has stumbled upon the fact that, when you die in D&D, you become a petitioner on another plane who's often a completely different creature with no memory of life and little or no free will. This process less resembles an afterlife and more the creation of another creature resulting from your death. There is no heaven for Drizzt where he can glide about fulfilling every desire, being who he was in life. If he's unlucky, some plane-hopping adventurers will decide AngelDrizzt is in their way and kill him again, eradicating him completely.

What I find myself asking is how characters in D&D can value the afterlife when this is what's in store for them.

In fact, afterlife in D&D sucks so much that more than one of my characters refused to worship any god. It is true that some clerics also refused to heal him, but he thought that accept healing would be selling himself cheap.

 

[Chroma]

Becoming a petitioner or what-have-you does suck when you think about it; your life and actions mean nothing in the afterlife, no wonder PCs are always getting raised! *laugh*

In my campaign, it's more of a reward/relax/revel kind of place... if you're good. *laugh* Here's a story I wrote for one of my players when his character was struck down by a slay living glyph. The other PCs were striving mightly to get him resurrected, but making the choice to return was tough and poignant for the character. He did eventually choose to return, but his "taste of heaven" strengthed his faith and dedication and really transformed the character. Added to the fact that half the party was killed in the final encounter of the adventure made it an even more powerful event.

The tale:

You feel a moment of cold, crushing pain…

…and then nothing…

Unknown amounts of time pass, you see, hear, and feel flashes of the triumphs and tragedies of your past, bursts of hopes and fears of the future, but a strange, aching emptiness for the present. You hurtle onward towards an unknown destination; bright light sears your eyes and chills your soul at the same time…

You find yourself reclining upon a low, comfortable couch, within an open-air, pillared building. Bright sunshine streams down outside and the sights and scents of a summer afternoon after a brief thunderstorm assail your senses with incredible strength. There is a heaviness upon you that makes it difficult to move, though you are able to look about the room you are in. A table set with delicious looking foods and a crystal decanter of deep red wine is nearby and you make a feeble attempt to reach for something, your throat parched.

“Ah, you have awakened.”

You turn and see the most beautiful woman you have ever laid eyes on. Or, at least she looks like a woman… her skin appears to be brightly burnished silver, her hair falls in thick curls, black as night, and her eyes shine like molten gold. The smile upon her lips dispels all thought of food or drink.

“Where am I? Where are my…” You struggle to remember how you got here and what you were doing before you awoke.

The strange woman sits upon a cushioned stool near you, adjusting her white robes, “You are in the Blessed Lands, my child, in the Outer Halls of the Joybringer.”

“I’m… dead?”

A look of sadness, enough to nearly break your heart, touches the woman’s face. “Yes, you were struck down by a cruel curse as you tried to lead your friends to safety. Others of your companions fell as well, though the task you were on was completed.”

She pauses for a moment and then continues, “You have not yet been taken into the Blessed Lands for there is a choice you must make. The curse that struck you down…” again that look of sadness “…damaged your soul, the essence of you. If not for the quick actions of your Sister, your soul would’ve been corrupted by the darkness of that curse, and you would have become one of the Lost, but you have been saved from that fate, yet, the damage still remains. You were struck down before your time and the gateway still stands open, no judgment has been passed, but I must warn you, and this is where you must make a choice. Your life was not completed, so your reward here in the Blessed Lands is not either, yet you are here. You may stay, and will soon forget the troubles of your past life, enjoying the fruits of the Joybringer and hearing stories and seeing things that make the Gods smile, but, you will never find true satisfaction; you will be restless even here, in the afterlife. Your friends hope to seek out the blessing of the Holy Mother and pray to return you to the lands of the living. And that is a choice open to you, if the price is paid, but there is a danger for you there as well; there is a hole in your soul. In the Blessed Lands you would be protected from harmful influences, nothing corrupt could grow to fill that place, but, if you return to the lands of the living, your choices and actions will decide how your soul heals. You will be especially susceptible to the temptations of evil and darkness; for they nearly had you… they have tasted you, and wish to devour all of you and fill that emptiness with their deceits. Yet, only through living will your soul heal and your afterlife be fulfilled. It is a difficult choice to be given, but it is in your power to make it.”

She looks at you as you try to comprehend what has happened to you. She touches your brow and some of your fear and confusion dissipates, but you know you still have a choice to make.

“Eat and drink from these things I have brought you,” she laughs, and you feel like laughing as well. “It is not like the old stories; you will not be trapped here by drinking the wine or eating the bread. Enjoy these tastes of heaven while you can.”

You do.