Again with the Undead? OY!

[Shemeska]

and as for the elves, they are supposed to be incredibly good creatures, that generally CAN'T become undead. It is something that is a special circumstance. As far as I know, elven liches are generally a punishment by the Seldarine. They don't get to go to Arvandor, and are cursed with undeath. It isn't something that they would consiously choose. Now if some PC tried to "choose" to be an elven lich, that would be uncool and not allowed.

Or alternatively it is an act of selfless good and unparalleled self-sacrifice on the part of the elf who becomes a lich for the purpose of watching over a person, a family line, or an object. There's nothing evil about that elven wizard saying effectively, 'I am giving up my chance of paradise with the Seldarine, I will be feared and shunned out of ignorance by my own kind, I will watch my body become a mockery of itself in life, I will give up everything that I am... and I am doing this for you, even if you don't appreciate it now, without regard for myself.'

That sort of self sacrifice can't honestly be viewed as evil.

And since when are elves default good creatures? In Tolkein perhaps, but DnD elves are not Tolkein elves.

I can think of a number of neutral or good liches, or other undead spellcasters in more than one setting, who embraced undeath to evade their mortal lifespan in order to continue working towards their research, or some specific goal. Nothing says that has to be evil, it's just more likely for evil spellcasters to be power hungry to the point of wanting to cast off mortality like that.

 

[the Jester]

and as for the elves, they are supposed to be incredibly good creatures, that generally CAN'T become undead.

Where do you get this idea? Do you have a reference, even in older editions?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Again with the discussion of things that don't matter?

I meant "Oy!" in the Yiddish way, not "Oi!" in the Punk way (which derives from a Brit way of catching someone's attention, like "Hey!" as I recall).

Now- back to the Undead!

The first appearance I know of of the Good Archlich was in 2Ed in an adventure, if I remember properly, not in Ebberon.

Mummies were Positive energy as far back as I can remember, possibly because they were among the few Undead types that underwent transformation voluntarily (to guard the tombs of their Pharoahs). I don't know that there is any "official" explanation for it though.

 

[Teemu]

Which I've always found to be innane at best. Things given 'life' by positive energy are one of two things: either they're what we call alive, or they're an animated object. If you want good undead, just have good undead, not the deathless which I don't consider worth giving the time of day.

Dump an undead creature to the negative energy plane; what happens? It's constantly healed and it thrives. Dump a living creature to the positive energy plane; what happens? It's constantly healed, to the point of death. Dump a deathless creature to the positive energy plane; what happens? It's constantly healed and it thrives.

Undead and living creatures aren't direct opposites. Undead and deathless are, and deathless nicely complete the circle (or duality).

 

[mythusmage]

My Definitions

Undead: Deceased who can't get a good eternity's rest.

Unliving: Deceased given life through some special means. Blood for vampires, or a purpose to be fulfilled for revenants.

Alignment varies widely among the newly undead or unliving, though the 'survivors' tend to be lawful neutral to lawful good mostly because the blatantly evil ones get themselves destroyed rather early on in the game.

Nota Bene: On Dragon Earth ghouls are not undead or unliving. Ghouls are people driven by a great obsession. An obsession that has warped them to the point they can only survive on rotting human flesh. Ghouls are the ones most likely to be evil in nature up until the day of their destruction, or they start on the path to redemption.

Insofar as the Dragon Earth universe doesn't have planes per se, there is no negative energy plane for undead or unliving to draw upon. Both types use regular mundane energy, just like everybody else.

 

[DragonLancer]

Personally for me it should be broken down into the difference between Undead and Unliving. Undead were once living creatures... zombies, liches, and the like. Unliving are the weird undead ... devourers and such.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

"Are you a good lich, or a bad lich?"

"I'm Dorothy Gail, from Kansas. I'm not a lich at all."

I have no problem with the occasional creature that breaks the mould. Not every undead has to be evil, just as not every orc has to be evil. Just mostly.

 

[Zeit]

"Undead are always evil because they are created with a spell that has the [evil] descriptor." "Create Undead is [evil] because it creates evil creatures."
This circular logic is giving me a headache.

That said, I don't see any given reason why in general undead are supposed to be evil. Negative energy is not evil, the [evil] descriptor is actually meant as a sign that this spell is part of the cleric's [evil] domain and can't be cast by good clerics, the undead type has no set alignment, skeletons, zombies, etc. are mindless, which makes them actually unable to be evil...

Well, I dunno. Aside from a very dumb design decision (if one takes the planar logic into context), there's not much saying that undead are evil. But, Paladins gotta smite these things, so let's make them all evil and sort it them out later.

 

[Thorindale]

The first appearance I know of the Good Archlich was in 2Ed in an adventure,...

AFAIK, the arch-lich first appeared in a Spelljammer Adventure.

Mummies were Positive energy as far back as I can remember...

I remember reading about the positive-energy fueled mummies in the VanRitchen's Guide to the Ancient Undead (2ed Ravenloft). When and where are there references to mummies being “positive” earlier than this?

As it was pointed out earlier, Gary Gygax debunks VanRitchen and his theory about "positive mummies" in the Slayer's Guide to Undead from Mongoose.

 

[Cheiromancer]

He also confirms this in post 221 of part IX of the ask Gary thread. Link is http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=125997&page=6