Ages of empires when elves are around?

[Cor Azer]

Many (if not most or all) campaigns have had their ancient civilizations, long ruined but hinted at in legends. I'm curious how other people approach having these ancient civilizations be ancient when you've got such long-lived races as elves and to a lesser degree dwarves. Human generations pass in 30-40 years, so a civilization of several hundred human generations ago may only be that of the elves' grandparents (well, maybe great-grandparents).

As a DM, do you consider such things? How long ago do your ancient events have to be in order for the vast majority of people to have no chance at second-, third-, or fourth-hand accounts?

Similarly, have much advancement happens in those thousands (or more) of years? Did the ancient civilization have much of the same stuff (magics? weapons? races?)?

 

[ender_wiggin]

Elves dont' live for like two thousand years IMW.

Life expectancy is about 350-400 years. Record is about 700. After you hit ~240 years you get Alzheimers and start losing memory. So it's not that big of a stretch. Fantasy time is usually more spread out than real life time (because there isn't a lot of technology).

 

[S'mon]

IMC I use 1e Aging so grey elves can live up to 2000 years, but there are ancient human & pre-human fallen empires from at least 15,000 years back.

 

[Pinotage]

I'd deliberately designed part of a campaign around the fact that the elves could remember older times. I chosen the timelines of various events to be such that only the oldest of elves would remember them, but that the rest of the races would have second or third-hadn knowledge. There were very few elves in the world, but they knew a lot and were worth seeking if you wanted to know things. They also controlled the Council that governed the island. It worked out well.

Pinotage

 

[Cor Azer]

IMC I use 1e Aging so grey elves can live up to 2000 years, but there are ancient human & pre-human fallen empires from at least 15,000 years back.

Were these ancient empires from 15,000 years back of a similar technological and magical level as the current ones?

One of the reasons I'm curious about this is that I want to develop a history for one of my games that makes mention to ages earlier, but with certain long-lived races that becomes hard to do, because ancient to an elf isn't the same as for a human. Also, consider how much real-life humans have developed over, say, 15,000 years - we're talking possibly barely having fire and stone tools there. Why would fantasy worlds ramian so static (technologically and magically, if not politically)?

 

[S'mon]

Were these ancient empires from 15,000 years back of a similar technological and magical level as the current ones?

One of the reasons I'm curious about this is that I want to develop a history for one of my games that makes mention to ages earlier, but with certain long-lived races that becomes hard to do, because ancient to an elf isn't the same as for a human. Also, consider how much real-life humans have developed over, say, 15,000 years - we're talking possibly barely having fire and stone tools there. Why would fantasy worlds ramian so static (technologically and magically, if not politically)?

It varies; but generally IMC technology progresses over time and magic is cyclical. The original founders of Ea 3 million years ago, the Eldren, were greatly technomagically superior to anything possible today. 15,000 years ago most humans were stone-age hunter-gatherers. The quasi-human R'ylNobean civilisation had technology comparable to 'today' in most respects and lots of magical power. The Alfen & Dwurish civilisations, likewise.
The past 15,000 years have seen numerous magical & man-made cataclysms, including 2 ice ages, and civilisations are often destroyed or collapse. This isn't un-realistic - Roman civilisation was in many respects more advanced than anything modern European civilsations attained before about the mid 19th century.

 

[S'mon]

IRL I think humans have had fire & worked stone tools maybe a million years ago BTW, and AFAIK we reached our present homo-sapiens-sapiens brain size ca 150,000 years ago, though we may not have been fully 'modern' until we domesticated dogs/dogs symbiotised with us, maybe 50-60,000 years ago. The first known civilisations had to await the development of sedentary agriculture ca 8,000 years ago.

 

[Chroma]

Why would fantasy worlds ramian so static (technologically and magically, if not politically)?

One thing that doesn't seem to get considered when the "progress" of a fantasy world is examined is that, at least nominally, in a fantasy world there may be active and powerful forces that act against advancements; gods of death and decay, demons, even powerful spellcasters that like things the way they are. As well, powerful magic could produce the equivalent of a nuclear war wiping out vast civilizations (the Rain of Colourless Fire from Greyhawk is a good example of this) and leaving little of their knowledge and culture behind.

 

[Cor Azer]

One thing that doesn't seem to get considered when the "progress" of a fantasy world is examined is that, at least nominally, in a fantasy world there may be active and powerful forces that act against advancements; gods of death and decay, demons, even powerful spellcasters that like things the way they are. As well, powerful magic could produce the equivalent of a nuclear war wiping out vast civilizations (the Rain of Colourless Fire from Greyhawk is a good example of this) and leaving little of their knowledge and culture behind.

Hmm... I guess that is one thing to consider - opposed forces are much more visible and capable than any anti-progress groups in real life.

And S'mon, thanks for the perspective lesson; I guess my timelines on those subjects were off by a couple factors of 10...

 

[Tonguez]

IRL I think humans have had fire & worked stone tools maybe a million years ago BTW, and AFAIK we reached our present homo-sapiens-sapiens brain size ca 150,000 years ago, though we may not have been fully 'modern' until we domesticated dogs/dogs symbiotised with us, maybe 50-60,000 years ago. The first known civilisations had to await the development of sedentary agriculture ca 8,000 years ago.

Pretty much (agriculture may have started 9000 years BP btw)

Thats why the oldest 'lost civilisations' imc are at most 10000 years old (and most between 2000 and 5000 years) Sure a elf might have heard their grandpa tell stories about his adventures in the Lost Ruins of Arka when it was a roaring tourist resort and its always cool when a dragon confronts a human and growls "silence fool! I remember when your ancestors first crawled out of their caves - it was Me who taught them your precious Lore!".

It also the long age of elfs et al that keeps advancement slow, humans need to keep reinventing and that makes them innovative which leads to advancement. Elfs however remember the past and so remain conservative, dwarfs are tradition-bound and change only slowly. Plus magic remains static and technology is slowed by the forces of gods, dragons and faerie who being (near) immortal were around when it started and aren't likely to change just because a human wants to.