D&D General Alien Character Mindsets: Elves should be pretty conservative about almost everything.

[Steampunkette]

Modern elves are nerfed from previous editions as well.

A Karen elf isn't going to be a contemporary of Washington she can wax lyrically about Elizabeth the First.

Depending on edition and subrace grandad elf isn't gonna tell war stories of WW1 or 2 but could tell you about the crisis if the third century and can recall the last days of Rome.

Group of Grandpa Elves sitting at their own table at Thanksgiving debating when Rome "Really" fell because they each have their own opinions on societal decay. And someone mentions Orestes and Romulus Augustus and it turns into a fist-fight over a 10 month long Emperor-Puppet and his warmongering father...

Until one of the Grandmas calls out the pie is ready and the argument gets dropped aside from angry looks over whipped cream.

 

[Zardnaar]

Group of Grandpa Elves sitting at their own table at Thanksgiving debating when Rome "Really" fell because they each have their own opinions on societal decay. And someone mentions Orestes and Romulus Augustus and it turns into a fist-fight over a 10 month long Emperor-Puppet and his warmongering father...

Until one of the Grandmas calls out the pie is ready and the argument gets dropped aside from angry looks over whipped cream.

Yup realistically most of them wouldn't know the details probably more like "yeah Rome was a thing once. It sucked" or "never visted met a merchant once".

Retired elven adventurers though.

Think only great elves could hit 1200-2000 years and not sure in the 2000 part.

Assuming potions of longevity aren't being used. Undead being around that long is also a thing but not really interactable in most cases.

 

[RoughCoronet0]

.. is that 4e lore, @RoughCoronet0? 'Cause... I do not remember any of that...

Reverie was a form of meditation with mental exercises that elves could choose to do instead of sleeping, and it helped with their memory... but what you've written, there, sounds way more involved than anything I read about it.

Most of this comes actually from a lore video from Mr. Rhexx on YouTube that compiles information from several older Forgotten Realm source books like Races of Faerun, Elves of Evermeet, Grand History of the Realm, and Cormanthy: Empire of Elves from 2nd and 3rd edition.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I think that elves would have a very different perspective to time than humans. A lot of human conservatism is driven my a nostalgia for the past. Particularly some golden age before their time.
If elves where in the here and now there would be elves that would have seen the rise and fall of the British Empire and who knew people that had seen the rise of the Spanish and Portuguese empires. I think that this would give one a different perspective one the permanence of structures. They probably have cultural traditions about cultures that became rigid and unable to hand Black Swan events and other out of context problems.
They would have probably come up with some cultural practise to cleanse oneself of outmode thinking.
May be they retire to very isolated monasteries for a couple decades to clear the head and then go for a wanderjahr. Perhaps that is where all these elven adventurers come from.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah... uh... I get what the writers -say- Elves are like... but when you compare them to the worlds they're in and the media that is shown about them, they much more often ascribe to the kinds of mindsets I've written about above.

Even in FR they're written as CG or NG their whole societal structure is LG AF, with strong central governments (Monarchies, mostly, but occasionally Religious or Druidic rulership) and almost always a class system which puts specific elves above other elves in a hierarchy of citizenship.

Mostly because it's all based in high fantasy feudalism, but still.

Actually Chaotic (Free spirited, independent) elves? Would probably not have a society in short order... instead, they'd be rugged individualists off on their own living in the wild lands, farming, hunting, fishing, building their homes. Coming together only to mate and raise a child before going off on their own, again. Unattached to people, places, or identities beyond their own weird enjoyments out in the woods. They might swing by a friend's place, now and then, or entertain the occasional visitor... but mostly they'd just be alone.

Oh, sure, they might come to town now and then to take in the local Art Scene and see what's changed in theatre and music every couple decades...

Which is why there's a big bolded section in the middle to separate the example from the actual point.

But since you chose philosophy and art:

Why should elves care about art? Art, by it's very nature, is more ephemeral and fleeting than a spear or a shirt. A spear kept well can last multiple human lifetimes, but within a generation we see art change a dozen times into a dozen new permutations with one of the latest being DEEP FRIED MEMES.

Having laws and society doesn't equate to a lawful society. The United States is a great example of a CG nation. The U.S. has many laws, but the main focus for the Constitution and many State laws are individual freedoms and rights and a society that isn't stuck under the thumb of the government. It's even viewed as better to let a probable murderer go free than lock up a potentially innocent man if there's some reasonable doubt.

The elves of the Realms are like this. A monarchy =/= lawful, nor does a society that has a class structure. Elven society as a whole is about individual elven expression, but within the elven monarchy for most elves. The elves you describe in your chaotic society are CN, not CG. A CN society would probably be rugged individualists off on their own doing whatever. A CG society will have structure like the elves in the Realms have.

 

[Steampunkette]

Having laws and society doesn't equate to a lawful society. The United States is a great example of a CG nation. The U.S. has many laws, but the main focus for the Constitution and many State laws are individual freedoms and rights and a society that isn't stuck under the thumb of the government. It's even viewed as better to let a probable murderer go free than lock up a potentially innocent man if there's some reasonable doubt.

The elves of the Realms are like this. A monarchy =/= lawful, nor does a society that has a class structure. Elven society as a whole is about individual elven expression, but within the elven monarchy for most elves. The elves you describe in your chaotic society are CN, not CG. A CN society would probably be rugged individualists off on their own doing whatever. A CG society will have structure like the elves in the Realms have.

... I really -really- can't express the ways I disagree with this post without getting this thread shut down, so let's just say I disagree the US is CG. Vehemently.

A society with a central authoritarian figure who must be obeyed by all or face punishment is pretty Lawful. Even if that leader is somehow Chaotic of nature (which they never are) their society is still rigidly feudal with Counts and Dukes and so on and so forth. Which is why I say that societies with a rigid class system (One that creates Elven Princes and Princesses) is gonna be pretty Lawful.

A Chaotic society would probably something like a communist society in that no one would hold a position of authority over others, and everyone would get an equal say in things like resource allocation and inter-governmental treaties and trade deals with neighboring nation-states.

However.

Young elves in such a society would have to deal with the majority of that society being -significantly older- than the last two or twelve generations (since Elves breed so rarely according to pretty much every setting) and they'd be trapped in a society where they have "Equal Say" but are utterly outnumbered by another (older) group creating a gerontocracy in all but name (inasmuch as the elders agreed on anything, but would likely have more in common with each other than with the whippersnappers of today).

Which means if they wanna be free wheeling and carefree and have an -actual- equal voice in their day to day life they need to leave and go out by themselves for... ever.

Hence the "Rugged Individualist" angle. They'd still be good people. Just largely solo, I think.

 

[Maxperson]

A society with a central authoritarian figure who must be obeyed by all or face punishment is pretty Lawful.

No, it's not. It takes more than a social status structure to make a society lawful or not.

Even if that leader is somehow Chaotic of nature (which they never are) their society is still rigidly feudal with Counts and Dukes and so on and so forth. Which is why I say that societies with a rigid class system (One that creates Elven Princes and Princesses) is gonna be pretty Lawful.

Read up on history. Feudal society was pretty darn chaotic. Fighting amongst one another. Finding ways to refuse orders from those above you or betray them so your family could rise. There was a lot of order, but also a lot of chaos.

A Chaotic society would probably something like a communist society in that no one would hold a position of authority over others, and everyone would get an equal say in things like resource allocation and inter-governmental treaties and trade deals with neighboring nation-states.

A purely chaotic society could look like that, sure. A CG society? No.

 

[pukunui]

Most of this comes actually from a lore video from Mr. Rhexx on YouTube that compiles information from several older Forgotten Realm source books like Races of Faerun, Elves of Evermeet, Grand History of the Realm, and Cormanthy: Empire of Elves from 2nd and 3rd edition.

And here I thought you were going to say it’s the lore from Mordenkainen’s Tome of Foes, because it sure sounded like it was! Those older books must be where they got their ideas for ToF.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Actually Chaotic (Free spirited, independent) elves? Would probably not have a society in short order... instead, they'd be rugged individualists off on their own living in the wild lands, farming, hunting, fishing, building their homes. Coming together only to mate and raise a child before going off on their own, again. Unattached to people, places, or identities beyond their own weird enjoyments out in the woods. They might swing by a friend's place, now and then, or entertain the occasional visitor... but mostly they'd just be alone.

That's a lot of assumptions that aren't supported by anything more than common association of traits.

Anarcho-communist communities of tight knit families that share resources and challenges and communally raise young are just as likely.

I'd say they're just as likely, but the potential irony isn't lost on me. We all have our biases.

Oh, sure, they might come to town now and then to take in the local Art Scene and see what's changed in theatre and music every couple decades...

You're right. I bet I could find someone writing Disco today. Or Motown music. Or Classical.

Not only that, but the styles that have come up since the advent of the internet haven't even gone away in the sense that those have. Classical has gone nowhere, btw, other than to transition from the music we go to the venue to hear, to the music we hear at the music and judge the thing we are there to see in part by, and like everything else....

It's all part of the new music. All of it. Listen to Coheed and Cambria's new album, and you'll hear elements from musical traditions and movements from every decade back to at least the 70's, as well as classical symphonies and the like.

And that will only become more and more the case over the next several decades.

But in the next few years I won't be able to buy a car with windows that roll down using a crank because there won't be any left. That design is gone, and all the parts to repair it are rusted or discarded. Not unless I can make it myself or hire a machinist to do it as a custom order.

I sell autoparts for a living, and I'm here to respectfully let you know that you are objectively incorrect about this. You can, if you own a popular vehicle like a honda civic or a ford pickup, buy relacement parts for your manual window control lever at literally any autoparts store in the United States.

And I could sell my beat up 1995 toyota t100 pickup for $2k right now, no problem. as much as 10k if I spent about a thousand fixing her up, mechanically and cosmetically.

Heck, do you know how recently cars in the US still came with the option for manual everything?

maybe if we switch years to decades. Maybe.

In another couple generations I won't be able to have a Uranium Glass Lamp or Chandelier because time and damage go hand in hand, glass being what it is, and no one making uranium glass anymore.

This one doesn't especially move me, because it's not like someone can't make a product that mimics uranium glass. It's not like green, semi-transparent glassware will go extinct.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Interesting ideas/topic in the OP. The only part that rubs me wrong is the "should" phrasing rather than "could". Yeah, this is a cool idea and I can see it being part of an interesting campaign world. But the only reason it "should" be anything is if the people involved want it to be so.

(Or did I mis-read this and you're in some kind of fantasy world-building competition with @JMISBEST? If so, you may as well give up now. There can be only one.)