Alien Intelligence

Cleon

Legend
I think we need to look at two different scenarios:

We started this line of discussion considering unmanned, robotic probes. Barring technology we don't know is possible, an interstellar crossing for it would mean centuries running without maintenance. That's a problem.

I'd assume said probe would be maintaining itself.

The thread was talking Von Neumann-type machines, if I recall.

Since such a machine contains instructions and equipment capable of replicating itself, presumably it won't require that much more work to give it the capability to replicate and replace damaged parts of itself. The simplest approach would likely to have the probe consist of multiple identical Von Neumann machines, and if one of them breaks down the others take it apart and rebuild it. You'd certainly need a decent degree of built-in redundancy so there's enough "working" parts to recognize and correct the "damaged" parts.

That probably falls into "technology we don't know how to do", but the same could be said for insterstellar generation ships.

A generation ship, with capacity to recycle, and people to make new parts and even entire new systems? It still takes centuries, but is a much different question.

Hmm...

The question is, what difference does it make if this interstellar vessel relies on a bunch of organic lifeforms or Von Neumann robots for its self-reproducing repair crew?

Arguably, assuming the latter is technically possibly, it's probable a lot better. Robots can be engineered without many of the properties that make living creatures less optimal for space travel.

If for some reason a living crew is just as efficient as a robot one, the problem of "cultural drift" may be a lot worse with the organics. The expedition would be pointless if the crew's society has changed so much it has no inclination to disembark at the generation ship's destination.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The thread was talking Von Neumann-type machines, if I recall.

Since such a machine contains instructions and equipment capable of replicating itself, presumably it won't require that much more work to give it the capability to replicate and replace damaged parts of itself.

Maybe. Consider that humans are constructed to replicate themselves. But our ability to repair ourselves is rather limited. Being able to replicate does not imply the ability to completely self-repair. Being built to mine asteroids and manufacture a new probe doesn't imply the ability to disassemble one's self and replace parts.

The question is, what difference does it make if this interstellar vessel relies on a bunch of organic lifeforms or Von Neumann robots for its self-reproducing repair crew?

Well, the crew comes with a bunch of self-repair that you don't have to do any design work to get, and medical capabilities to cover much of the rest. More important to Tom's point, the crew can come up with entirely new solutions to problems in-flight.

In effect, building a von Neumann probe to do all this requires reinventing many wheels already developed for humans - mostly in terms of intelligence and adaptability. Right now, we find exploration to be more efficient with probes, but those probes do *not* have all the abilities of a human laboratory. They are far cheaper than sending humans specifically due to their limited capacities. When you may actually need the full capabilities of lab and factory, the probe may not be the most efficient route. Machines are great for specialized tasks, but maybe not for generalized goals.
 

Cleon

Legend
Maybe. Consider that humans are constructed to replicate themselves. But our ability to repair ourselves is rather limited. Being able to replicate does not imply the ability to completely self-repair. Being built to mine asteroids and manufacture a new probe doesn't imply the ability to disassemble one's self and replace parts.

Well not so much constructed to replicate themselves as randomly evolved to produce offspring. Many of the limitations on human self-repair ability are down to accidents of ontogeny which are pretty irrelevant to a robot probe. It's easy to imagine a modular machine that can easily replace a defective limb or brain by simply plugging in a new one. That's a lot harder to do with a lifeform!

Oh, and I was talking about a probe with a bunch of Von Neumann machines in it. If each can make replacement parts or entire new machines from materials mined from an asteroid, it ought to be able to do the same from the materials of one of its companions that's broken down. Presumably there'll be some wastage and energy loss involved in the process, but it would hopefully extend the probe's useful lifespan far beyond a machine incapable of self-repair. The probe could carry spare fabrication material of course, but it'd be logistically simpler to have it pre-formed into useful components like parts of the Von Neumann machines, so you might as well put those parts together into functional machines in case the probe needs their processing abilities.

Well, the crew comes with a bunch of self-repair that you don't have to do any design work to get, and medical capabilities to cover much of the rest. More important to Tom's point, the crew can come up with entirely new solutions to problems in-flight.

In effect, building a von Neumann probe to do all this requires reinventing many wheels already developed for humans - mostly in terms of intelligence and adaptability. Right now, we find exploration to be more efficient with probes, but those probes do *not* have all the abilities of a human laboratory. They are far cheaper than sending humans specifically due to their limited capacities. When you may actually need the full capabilities of lab and factory, the probe may not be the most efficient route. Machines are great for specialized tasks, but maybe not for generalized goals.

The "If for some reason a living crew is just as efficient as a robot one" includes the assumption that the robots have some kind of AI or expert system that perform roughly par to humans, at least as far as whatever task the interstellar vessel's designers sent it out to the stars to perform.

The details of said performance may be very different, of course. The human crew might solve problems with the ingenuity of their soggy brains which the robots avoid by meticulous error-checking or by computer modelling myriads of responses to an approaching threat to try to guess which is more likely to succeed.

Or, the ship can use a combination of the two. A generation ship full of humans might have self-repairing systems that require minimum maintenance. A crew of robots might fly an interstellar colony ship through space for centuries, then defrost the human crew to do the tricky work of figuring out surprises and supervise the womb-banks to produce the colony's "first generation".

Since we don't know the technical feasibility or difficulty of either approach, it seems premature to assume which one is more difficult. A human generation ship would have to be enormous compared to a robot probe. If it uses up the resources to build a thousand robot probes but is only ten times more likely to produce the results you want, there'd be little point sending one. Contrariwise, if the ship's task is something only humans can do (abstract thinking beyond the future robot's AI, breeding little humans, or whatever), you'd have to send the generation ship.
 

Well not so much constructed to replicate themselves as randomly evolved to produce offspring. Many of the limitations on human self-repair ability are down to accidents of ontogeny which are pretty irrelevant to a robot probe. It's easy to imagine a modular machine that can easily replace a defective limb or brain by simply plugging in a new one. That's a lot harder to do with a lifeform!
It may look simple at first, until you start to realize that your machine might need to be quite complex to be able to do all the kind of operations it needs to be capable of.
There is no real point in sending out a Von Neumann machine that is as smart as a tardigrade... That wouldn't really serve any exploration goals.

So in the end you need a machine that cannot just repair or construct itself, but also have the ability to gather all it needs from the environment. And still have all the capabilities to "explore" the world and learn stuff.

You may end up with a machine that is just as complex as a human body. Maybe it's better suited to exist in space, at least, that might make it superior to generation ship exploration. But maybe it doesn't really matter anymore at that point, because it's extremely difficult to create somethnig s complex that can live in any type of environment, and your machine might need to operate in different environment to retrieve the materials it needs.
 

Cleon

Legend
It may look simple at first, until you start to realize that your machine might need to be quite complex to be able to do all the kind of operations it needs to be capable of.
There is no real point in sending out a Von Neumann machine that is as smart as a tardigrade... That wouldn't really serve any exploration goals.

So in the end you need a machine that cannot just repair or construct itself, but also have the ability to gather all it needs from the environment. And still have all the capabilities to "explore" the world and learn stuff.

You may end up with a machine that is just as complex as a human body. Maybe it's better suited to exist in space, at least, that might make it superior to generation ship exploration. But maybe it doesn't really matter anymore at that point, because it's extremely difficult to create somethnig s complex that can live in any type of environment, and your machine might need to operate in different environment to retrieve the materials it needs.

I'm not foolish enough to think we're hypothesizing about something that's easy to do. :cool:

If the probes are just sent out to see what's out there, maybe you would only need something as smart as an arthropod, since it's mission function is to look about itself and beam what it sees back home. I wonder how a tardigrade's information-processing capacity compares to a Voyager space probe?

As for the complexity question, I don't see why it would be engineered to live in any environment in space. How could it be? There are some very hostile places out there, and building a machine to cope with all of them would be impossible. Indeed, a lot of places in space are so harsh the probe would have to view them from a very long distance to avoid destruction. It's far more likely that such a probe would be designed to self-reproduce in relative "comfortable" areas of space, by mining asteroids and the like. It might drop spare copies of itself or separately built sensor packs into more hostile areas in suicidal scouting runs while keeping enough probes back where its safe to continue the mission.

Oh, and regarding the "just as complex as a human body". It's worth bearing in mind that a lot of that complexity is unnecessary from an engineering standpoint. The design of living organisms has been kludged together by evolution, so there's a lot that is needlessly complicated* and a few parts that are pretty useless (but not so useless they're harmful to survival). A robot wouldn't be designed with vestigial organs that are left-overs from when it was a fish but don't do anything now, or have molecular "machinery" that's much larger than it needs to be.

*That's assuming it actually is needlessly complicated, presumably some of that complexity is useful but we just haven't figured out what it's good for. At a minimum, the complexity of having lots of spare "parts" give the lifeform more directions it can evolve in. I'm not sure you'd really want your robot probe to do much evolving, or rather than scouting the galaxy you might find you've inadvertently seeded it with a mechanical civilization.
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
You may end up with a machine that is just as complex as a human body. Maybe it's better suited to exist in space, at least, that might make it superior to generation ship exploration.

Or maybe not. One of the problems with complexity is that it tends to be fragile. By the time you've built a machine that can do all the required things, it may no longer be robust.

And, you also then hit upon the efficiency question. If you add all this R&D effort to build such a thing together, is it really any cheaper and easier than sending a human?
 

Oh, and regarding the "just as complex as a human body". It's worth bearing in mind that a lot of that complexity is unnecessary from an engineering standpoint. The design of living organisms has been kludged together by evolution, so there's a lot that is needlessly complicated* and a few parts that are pretty useless (but not so useless they're harmful to survival). A robot wouldn't be designed with vestigial organs that are left-overs from when it was a fish but don't do anything now, or have molecular "machinery" that's much larger than it needs to be.
Well... A perfectly designed robot might not... But if it's a human-made project with a budget and all, it might use several standard components that have features not actually needed for that robot.

Say, an operating system that stil has compatbility features for software that was designed for older versions... Software that will of course never run on the robot.
A signal processor that also has a build-in encryption module so it can stream 40K-3D-Smellovision Signals with all copyrights intact...
Or just a telescopic arm with a fancy adaptive-attachment system so it can be installed on multiple different industry robots, even if this robot needs only one particular type of attachment.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
Let's posit that sending a human doesn't make sense, but that sending an unsophisticated robot doesn't make sense either.

A human is impractical for space travel, and doesn't handle the very long time frames very well.

An unsophisticated robot, in either it mechanicals or its software, would be insufficient to the task of long term autonomous operation.

My conclusion is that if a interstellar voyage were taken, it would require a hybrid of capabilities of people and robots.

My question then is whether this is possible, either as a simple material question: Can we make machines, even ones which self repair, which can last a journey of hundreds to thousands of years; Or as a information processing question: Can we make a thinking device which will have both sufficient thought power to be adequate to the journey, and which would remain functional (== sane) for the duration.

I think that the question of whether a generational ship would be able to maintain a stable society is a good question to ask, in that it might highlight problems of maintaining high intelligence over time.

Thx!

TomB
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Let's posit that sending a human doesn't make sense, but that sending an unsophisticated robot doesn't make sense either.

A human is impractical for space travel, and doesn't handle the very long time frames very well.

I'd like to take this in a different direction.

If humans *cannot* go to these places, why bother spending the resources to develop, build, and launch such a sophisticated machine?

Scientific exploration for the sake of exploration is actually based on the idea that you can never tell what piece of information will be useful. However, if we are admitting that humans are forever trapped in this one solar system, we are also admitting that much of the information gained will be moot, as we won't ever be interacting with any system other than our own. We might be as well or better off just using what remote data-gathering systems we can (telescopes, and such), and otherwise saving the resources to directly understand the system we have and have a chance of interacting with.
 

Janx

Hero
I'd like to take this in a different direction.

If humans *cannot* go to these places, why bother spending the resources to develop, build, and launch such a sophisticated machine?

Scientific exploration for the sake of exploration is actually based on the idea that you can never tell what piece of information will be useful. However, if we are admitting that humans are forever trapped in this one solar system, we are also admitting that much of the information gained will be moot, as we won't ever be interacting with any system other than our own. We might be as well or better off just using what remote data-gathering systems we can (telescopes, and such), and otherwise saving the resources to directly understand the system we have and have a chance of interacting with.

I dunno, because we can?

Because by trying to do so, we may find a means to do so. But if we accept our fate and don't try, then we as a species are doomed.

Eventually the 26 million year die off will happen, the sun will die, asteroids, ice age, whatever.

Wouldn't it be nice to know that we'll get there someday?

Otherwise, what's the point of all that science. We might as well just go back to being hunter gatherers.
 

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