Alignment and real world examples...

[S'mon]

I'd go more CE.

After all, he helped overthrow his benevolent, enlightened and rightful British owners (alignment = Lawful DouplePlusGood or at least Lawful Mad) causing wholesale bloodshed and slaughter. Then he made up his own laws!!! Bah!

I can see Jefferson as CG and George III being LG (albeit insane). The Georgian monarchs weren't malevolent but they did believe in a Tory-style strong monarchy and strong government, which went against the previously dominant Whiggish grain of the more libertarian merchant classes - and the American colonies were largely Whig-dominated.

 

[S'mon]

NE = Machiavelli ("a prince ... should know how to do evil")

Machiavelli has been horribly traduced for centuries. He was devoted to civil liberty and much of his philosophy was taken (uncredited) by other philosophers and formed the basis for modern, especially continental-European, notions of liberty and civic virtue. It was also indirectly influential on Britain's 1688 Bill of Rights and thus on the US Constitution & Bill of Rights. I'd rate him N(G) to NG. A lot of US political thought such as the importance of a citizen army, distrust of mercenary armies, need to have a properly defined Constitution etc could be taken direct from Machiavelli. He hated dictators and the cult of personality - Julius Caesar was his greatest villain.

 

[Piratecat]

I'd go more CE.

After all, he helped overthrow his benevolent, enlightened and rightful British owners (alignment = Lawful DouplePlusGood or at least Lawful Mad) causing wholesale bloodshed and slaughter. Then he made up his own laws!!! Bah!

Ha ha. We won. Neener neener.

Seriously, be careful with this discussion, folks; we're keeping an eye on it, but we'd rather it not degenerate into politics.

 

[WayneLigon]

Ok, so you admit that virtualy all of those examples are CN. As far as the last, I don't think that anyone who fits the hippie classification actually were feet-on-the-ground reformers with reasonable ideas. There were all sorts of other people like that in the 60s, but at least by the definition of hippie I use those people don't qualify as hippies.

Er, no. I was probably unclear. The more mainstream types will have neutral as the LCN axis of their alignment. The 'Violent Overthrow' types: CE. The 'Peace and Love' types: CG. The 'political nihlists', CN. The 'Psychedelics', NN. More mainstream variations of those about will be more Neutral in the first component, since by being more mainstream, more like the society around them and will to work within it, they move closer to Law than Chaos.

Hippie: A person who opposes and rejects many of the conventional standards and customs of society, especially one who advocates extreme liberalism in sociopolitical attitudes and lifestyles. -- American New Heritage Dictionary.

Thus, almost all flavors are going to have some aspect of Chaotic in their makeup. Like most things, you'll have a spread of G/N/E in the mix. The core philosophy, as per the definition, I see as Good; the means to acheive it pushes some into the Evil or Neutral catagories.

 

[Silvanos]

I disagree with almost all those countries, but that involves going way too far into politics...

Yea, I am not sure you can really put a particular label on countries of 30 million, to 350 million people...

But I guess you can try!

Drew

 

[D+1]

I just thought it would be interesting to put together a list of real world arch types, based on alignment... With reasons to support it...

I generally avoid trying to match up real-life examples to D&D alignments. Alignment is simplified, generalized, and combines in vague ways mulitple disciplines like philosphy, religious views/spirituality and often a bit of personality (though that is best left out of it), oh and sociology too. The real world simply cannot and should not fit into those 9 categories with any reliability.

That's the reason alignment exists - so we don't NEED to describe characters at length regarding their philosphy, religion, attitude, morals and ethics, sociological expectations and so forth. We can simply jot down one of 9 two-letter codes that give us a shorthand reference for all that. You often can only use real world examples in isolated cases, very larger-than-life individuals who easily display their traits, or examples of only certain aspects of alignment.

Without even looking beyond the first post I can tell you that the thread is full of discussions of "Mr. AtoZ is this alignment/No he ISN'T! He's that alignment/I think a case can be made for him being the other alignment." Alignment isn't an END to achieve and to champion (usually not at least) but a means of guiding a player in his choice for character actions by providing a fixed reference. You can't hold up real-world examples a paragons of a given alignment because nobody in the real world strives to fit themselves into an alignment. Instead they strive to live by a _specific_ philosophy, _defined_ religious tenets and moral teachings, and the mores of their society and culture. That kind of specificity is not what alignment is about and it's a mistake to try and MAKE it about that. THAT is what breaks alignment as the tool which it's intended to be.

 

[Silvanos]

I generally avoid trying to match up real-life examples to D&D alignments.

Without even looking beyond the first post I can tell you that the thread is full of discussions of "Mr. AtoZ is this alignment/No he ISN'T! He's that alignment/I think a case can be made for him being the other alignment."

Nah. There has been a little bit of back and forth, but not really that much. Mostly listing exactly what I asked for, who and the why.

In anycase, I can tell you we label people in much narrower groups in everyday society. Liberal, Conservative, Right, Left, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Raceist, and on and on. Funny that people think those fit, but that we cannot play a game of putting real world people into these 9 catagories...

For me... I am LN, Liberal on social issues, Conservative on crime and defense, Buddhist, Middle Class, with a high Siegel’s (NORC) prestige score. But that is just me...

D

 

[Belegbeth]

For me... I am LN, Liberal on social issues, Conservative on crime and defense, Buddhist, Middle Class, with a high Siegel’s (NORC) prestige score. But that is just me...
D

Cool! But what is a Siegel's (NORC) score?

Thinking in these terms ... I am a CG (with a tendency towards CN, especially after a few pints) 7th level human philosopher (analytic domain). Patron deity: none (atheist). Some day I hope to achieve the prestige class of "professor" (but I have to meet the "tenure" prereq. first). [Stats: STR 8; DEX 8; CON 6; INT 12; WIS 4; CHA 8.] Special ability: I can cast "confusion" 1/day on my students.