-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
alignment changing
- Thread starter patch
- Start date
James the Newbie
First Post
What alignment to what alignment? as the easiest non magic way is a sudden shocking incident, or a pact of some kind.
Greenfield
Adventurer
I've always found it hard to do. Alignment (at least in my games) is just a label for how the character behaves. It isn't a private club with restricted membership and dues.
Now, there are a number of items and conditions that can force an alignment change. Some are artifact level, some aren't, but you can make something up as you see fit.
Also consider Bestow Curse. You can do just about anything with that.
There's also Atonement, which changes the target's alignment instantly.
Finally, consider Lycanthropy. Each were-creature has an alignment, and someone afflicted has to make Saves to resist having their alignment changes as their animalistic side takes over. And the fun thing is, even after the Lycanthropy is cured, the new alignment stays.
But, like I said, it's a descriptive phrase, not a jail cell. Nobody is locked in. So, like it or not, you need the player's consent or it simply won't work.
Now, there are a number of items and conditions that can force an alignment change. Some are artifact level, some aren't, but you can make something up as you see fit.
Also consider Bestow Curse. You can do just about anything with that.
There's also Atonement, which changes the target's alignment instantly.
Finally, consider Lycanthropy. Each were-creature has an alignment, and someone afflicted has to make Saves to resist having their alignment changes as their animalistic side takes over. And the fun thing is, even after the Lycanthropy is cured, the new alignment stays.
But, like I said, it's a descriptive phrase, not a jail cell. Nobody is locked in. So, like it or not, you need the player's consent or it simply won't work.
the group was going to kill a "evil" necromancer but through good DM plot twists having him around is more advantageous then killing him. except evil char are just that evil. so having a high lvl wizard as a later ally could never hurt i was trying to figure a way to switch him to an atleast less ill stab you in the back personality. believe alignment is LE.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Then Atonement is the key. It instantly changes the subject's alignment to match the Cleric casting it.
What's more the question, though, is this: Who would willingly allow another to essentially re-write their personality for them? They have to choose to accept the spell, and in a case like this one it costs your Cleric 500 Exp to cast, whether successful or not.
Then there's another Alignment question to consider: Would pretty much forcing a "Convert or Die" choice on another threaten or change the Cleric's alignment? Because that may be the only way to get them to accept the spell.
Forcing or coercing someone else to believe like you is almost LE in and of itself.
What's more the question, though, is this: Who would willingly allow another to essentially re-write their personality for them? They have to choose to accept the spell, and in a case like this one it costs your Cleric 500 Exp to cast, whether successful or not.
Then there's another Alignment question to consider: Would pretty much forcing a "Convert or Die" choice on another threaten or change the Cleric's alignment? Because that may be the only way to get them to accept the spell.
Forcing or coercing someone else to believe like you is almost LE in and of itself.
Green you bring up some good points. I agree I do not think most ppl would be all pick me i want to change my alignment because you said so or forcing me to. and forcing a saving throw on a mid lvl mage prob wouldn't go over very well too. thats why my not so morally tied down CN char is looking for an other approach. my goal would not be to change him to LG but at least out of the realm of id cut your throat while your sleeping. hence the cursed hat idea but bestow curse could work.
Greenfield
Adventurer
First, there is no Save for Atonement. They either accept it or they don't, and no form of Charm or Suggestion can compel them to say yes. Straight coercion is called for in a case like this one.
Second, the impact on your alignment would/should be the same, whether you're forcing a magical hat onto their head, hitting them with a Curse, or holding a knife to their throat while you cast Atonement.
It should be against your CN alignment to try and force someone else to change their alignment. No matter what the mechanism.
Now Bestow Curse has a drawback: It's called Remove Curse. You could tag them with a Mark of Justice to zap them if/when they violate their new alignment, but that can be removed as well.
To me, it sounds like your DM is setting you guys up for a fall, a double-cross in the making. The knife in the throat may be the better solution than the knife at the throat.
Second, the impact on your alignment would/should be the same, whether you're forcing a magical hat onto their head, hitting them with a Curse, or holding a knife to their throat while you cast Atonement.
It should be against your CN alignment to try and force someone else to change their alignment. No matter what the mechanism.
Now Bestow Curse has a drawback: It's called Remove Curse. You could tag them with a Mark of Justice to zap them if/when they violate their new alignment, but that can be removed as well.
To me, it sounds like your DM is setting you guys up for a fall, a double-cross in the making. The knife in the throat may be the better solution than the knife at the throat.
yes after opening the book and reading the spell i realized there was no save( i play wizards to the finer points to clerics elude me). and here begins my dilemma with how alignment is used and what counts as a good/bad act. in the CN description is makes them seem like ppl that are only out to finish there own end goals. so making a temp ally into a more suitable permanent one... Im pretty sure that is whats going to happen hence why im trying to stop it now and i want to have a fairly set up plan before i go tromping off. i was looking into a bestow curse (knowing that they can be removed) to then use atonement of his free will to repent for what he has done. so im not being argumentative i just dont get why it would effect my alignment, i could see a good align person having a prob, but even then if they were ridding the world of something evil. thats why i was looking for something like the hat where "here wear this we need to hid your face"(the cursed hat of disguise) ooo what happened now you don't want to kill babies anymore. *swings arm* ah bummer, o well lets go kill that bad guy. (that was intended to sound innocent)
James the Newbie
First Post
How about using Geass/Quest. As far as D&D is concerned that seems to be a good way to go. While not changing their alignment, you will certainly start to push them towards a different path very strongly. Just make sure to pick the right one
Greenfield
Adventurer
Patch,
My thought was along a different line: Chaotic Neutral is supposed to be about personal freedom, not being bound by others rules.
Forcing an alignment change on someone else is the ultimate violation of personal freedom. It's imposing *your* rules on someone else. That's a Law type move by any standard.
Plus, since this particular situation involves you doing this to keep them available for your convenient usage at a later date, it starts to sound Evil as well.
You've expressed the concern that you want to make him someone less likely to stab you in the back. Not to stop him from being a danger to the world at large, just a danger you and your party.
So if I was the DM, I'd be seeing this as a sort of LE type of move, essentially raping someone's mind and personality and imposing your will on them, strictly for your own benefit. Some would say that that's worse than raping their body, because you remove their ability to say "no".
My thought was along a different line: Chaotic Neutral is supposed to be about personal freedom, not being bound by others rules.
Forcing an alignment change on someone else is the ultimate violation of personal freedom. It's imposing *your* rules on someone else. That's a Law type move by any standard.
Plus, since this particular situation involves you doing this to keep them available for your convenient usage at a later date, it starts to sound Evil as well.
You've expressed the concern that you want to make him someone less likely to stab you in the back. Not to stop him from being a danger to the world at large, just a danger you and your party.
So if I was the DM, I'd be seeing this as a sort of LE type of move, essentially raping someone's mind and personality and imposing your will on them, strictly for your own benefit. Some would say that that's worse than raping their body, because you remove their ability to say "no".
Similar Threads
Pathfinder 2E
What Are The Changes In Pathfinder Remastered?