All monsters equal? Goblin Warrior vs Kobold Skirmisher.

[Neubert]

There is a clear cut method for making monsters btw, DMG 184. You'll find that almost all monsters in the MM fit that formula.

Yeah, and following that would give an AC of 15 (which is my biggest concern in general). I can understand a point here and there, but deviating 2 in a statistic that is quite important becomes quite a big effect.

I suppose I could find more examples of the same in the book (if I took the time to look ), but mostly I just wanted to see if other had noticed this issue.

 

[Gruns]

Flawed comparison.

Comparing just the useless stats of these two creatures is, well, useless. Garbage in, garbage out.
The only thing relevant in those stats is the lower defenses of the Kobold, specifically the 2 less AC.
The kobold, when used properly, is just as good as the goblin when it comes down to actual gameplay. Also note that the creature's fighting styles are completely different. The goblin wants to run around throwing javelins as often as it can, in order to take advantage of Great Position. Kobolds on the other hand want to swarm a single creature and stab it until its dead. Mob Attack adds a significant amount to the Attack rolls of the kobold, which in turn means more hits and thus more damage. Consider that a surrounded creature is also probably granting Combat Advantage and that's even more to the attack roll and extra damage in the form of the 1d6 from the Kobold's Combat Advantage. Shifty is one of the best racial abilities around, and makes swarming individuals fairly easy and painless.
As a minor aside, Kobolds have Darkvision whereas Goblins have Low-Light Vision. This isn't likely to matter very often, but when it happens that the battlefield is completely dark, the kobolds again have a great advantage. Trap Sense is fairly insignificant most of the time, too, and therefore doesn't deserve mention.
Sure, the goblin has better numbers, I guess, but the kobold seems to have the better means of accomplishing its goals. (Which is to stab you in the face).
Later
Gruns

 

[IanB]

If you want a somewhat more egregious comparison, check out the level 1 skeleton minion vs. the level 2 zombie minion. The zombie gives up an awful lot for that one extra point of damage.

 

[Gruns]

It's actually worse...

If you want a somewhat more egregious comparison, check out the level 1 skeleton minion vs. the level 2 zombie minion. The zombie gives up an awful lot for that one extra point of damage.

Actually, the Zombie Rotter is a level 3 minion, which is even worse. I'm not sure it'd be a fair fight even if the Zombie dealt 6 damage... Sad.
Gruns

 

[On Puget Sound]

I took a pen to my monster manual and changed zombie rotter to "level 1 minion." I have faith that eventually WotC will catch up with my errata.

 

[Jhaelen]

Actually, the Zombie Rotter is a level 3 minion, which is even worse. I'm not sure it'd be a fair fight even if the Zombie dealt 6 damage... Sad.
Gruns

That's almost certainly a typo. I've found ~ 15 minions that don't seem to have the correct level.

You can identify the ones with the wrong levels by checking their attribute bonuses. IIRC, only the minions with levels of 1, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26 are correct.

The WotC tool for designing encounters has the correct levels, btw.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Yeah, Kobold Skirmishers are deadly when used correctly. They do 1d8 damage with a +6 to attack. Mob Attack gives them a +1 bonus to hit per Kobold ally adjacent to the target, and then they get an extra 1d6 damage if they have Combat Advantage.

In KotS I was playing an Axe and Shield Fighter with Scale armor, so that's a 19 AC. During combat, I had 4 Kobolds adjacent to me, two of whom had me flanked (I hadn't read the MM at the time, so I didn't know how deadly this was). So, let's take a look at how that plays out...

The two Kobolds without CA have a +3 to hit, because of 3 allies adjacent to me, making for a +9. On my AC of 19 that means they hit on a 10. That's pretty good, and means they hit a little better than 50% of the time.

The two Kobolds with CA both have a +5 to hit, because CA adds a +2 on top of the +3 from mob attack. So that's a +11 to hit, meaning they hit on an 8. That's really good. They also do 1d8 (avg 4.5) + 1d6 (avg 3.5) damage when they hit.

Now, IIRC, the two with CA hit and only one of the other two hit. So that's 3d8 + 2d6 worth of damage, which on average is about 20.5 damage. And then my party wonders why I got bloodied after one round of attacks.

 

[Bagpuss]

Compare the Skeleton Minion Lvl 1, to the Zombie Minion Level 3 for a even stranger comparison.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Compare the Skeleton Minion Lvl 1, to the Zombie Minion Level 3 for a even stranger comparison.

Yeah, but you're talking about minions there... Differences in Minions, since they have only 1HP, aren't as big because they don't last as long. The Goblin/Kobold thing will have more of an effect because neither will go down in just 1 hit from anything.

 

[Klaumbaz]

The reason I did not delve into the powers is because I find that they can be harder to compare. I agree though, that the Kobolds generally have better powers. The Goblin warriors however are more versatile with both a ranged and melee weapon (and I put great position to excellent use with a couple of soldiers to hold the players off).
Anyway, it seems (when looking in the DMG for creating monsters) that it is actually the Goblin that has too high stats.

you cannot compare parts of anything vs parts of something else. you must compare the whole, not the parts thereof.

classic statistical analysis problem.

Shifty bastages for the win!!

Ninja