All rules are for power gaming

[iserith]

Roleplaying is just playing a role - determining how your character acts and thinks and what he or she says. If you choose to get into a fight, you're still roleplaying. You're also roleplaying when you talk to NPCs or when you try to sneak past some orcs. Just because someone "powergames" to get the best bonuses when fighting, talking to NPCs, or exploring doesn't mean he or she isn't roleplaying.

Step 4 of the character creation process are things that may influence the kinds of determinations you make when roleplaying. See Basic Rules, page 8 and 9. This includes appearance, personal characteristics (personality traits, ideal, bond, flaw), background, and ability scores. Inspiration is the game mechanic that incentivizes playing to personal characteristics, but can be expanded beyond that to include other ways of roleplaying at the DM's discretion. In this case, we see that game mechanics encourage a particular way of roleplaying. (I talk about this more in The Case for Inspiration.)

The "junior thespians" who complain should either get over themselves or understand that they are advocating for a particular way of communicating the act of roleplaying, not roleplaying in and of itself, and thus explain what they want better. Using the rules (to the extent players have recourse to the rules) while roleplaying does not undermine roleplaying. It can, however, change how that roleplaying is communicated which may not be desirable at certain tables.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

In a game where combat is the focal point, or dominate aspect, or strongest pillar, it is not only natural but expected to build characters so that they are good at combat. You can narrate and justify decisions as personality, or flaws, or unique perspectives of your character as part if their story, and someone is going to judge you for it. Unless it is your group or DM, don't worry about it. You're playing the game the way you enjoy, and technically, you're not breaking any rules (unless you are).

If the game focused more on negotiation and diplomacy, would it still be considered power gaming to build your character as a skillful negotiator or diplomat? Yup. But again, you are just playing to the designs of the game or campaign.

Personally, this is something I love about the Star Wars RPG. You can build a character and focus on combat. You'll be good in a fight, but fights aren't the cornerstone and they are not always meant to be won. Avoiding or ending fights in other ways are very possible and less risky, and you still get the end result desired: moving the story forward. Plus, there are more instances to use more skills needed to complete a story than just fight, kill, loot your way through every scenario.

 

[jgsugden]

Your house rule that all rules are for powergaming is abusive powergaming, and thus we will not use it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

But make no mistake, the rules are there to be used and effect the outcomes of the game. I think the questions we ask about powergaming need to be reframed. But really if we are critical of the way they are employed, we are actually just saying we don't like your story.

To me, powergaming is just about getting the most out of a system. Whether 'the most' is the highest DPR or the best-realized character concept is just a matter of preference. If the system is balanced well enough, you can have players doing either (or both) at the same table with minimal issues. If it's not, then, as you say, finding the right group (and in the case of 5e, especially, the right DM) is paramount.

 

[cmad1977]

Nope.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I did not create the thread you mention and have never seen it.

I am suggesting that the process of labeling others styles is often a misinterpretation.

Frankly, you are one of my favorite posters on EnWorld but I think your accusation is less than cool.

And my point stands: why put +2 ASI in intelligence instead of just saying you are smarter? It is all to have an effect in game, and that is no more or less noble as long as it fits your table and personal style.

You are right. I got my usernames starting with W mixed up. It was werebat. I apologize for my insinuation, and it was uncalled for. I would edit my original comment, but better to own up to my mistake and apologize for it than try to erase it. I sincerely do apologize.

 

[Warpiglet]

You are right. I got my usernames starting with W mixed up. It was werebat. I apologize for my insinuation, and it was uncalled for. I would edit my original comment, but better to own up to my mistake and apologize for it than try to erase it. I sincerely do apologize.

Thanks for that! I admit I was surprised but will think nothing further of it!

As to the thread...

I was actually just amused by the idea and wanted to discuss it. Not trying to get people to hate on the game. I actually love 5e--with roleplaying and LOTS of combat.

I too enjoy making my numbers make sense and roleplaying in a way that has some perceived congruence.

However, I just noticed that if I want to play a really smart character (maybe a wizard, maybe not) I want my intelligence higher. Why? For one, I want to pretend I know some stuff when I make skill roles. I can pretend to know stuff either way, but I want to influence the game, the narrative and the course of events.

Not exactly a game dominating thing in most games. However, I am choosing that for an in game benefit. We usually do not scoff at this. In this game, we usually scoff at stacked combat ability. I am starting to think this is an artificial dichotomy.

I do not like flavorless number bags that take down challenges like nothing is in the way...but I am trying to be more understanding of late and realize that is perhaps the next player's fantasy. I guess I am trying to see it from a less central position that (I hope) I occupy.

 

[hejtmane]

Three simple rules:

If you exploit the rules more than I do, you're a good-for nothing, dirty, powergamer.

If you enjoy getting into your character more than I do, you're an awful thespian who drags down the party and doesn't even know how to play the game.

If you like Paladins, you're just a bad, bad person.

Follow these three rules, and you're on the road to happiness and perfect gaming.

Forgot one kill gnomes and all is right in the world

 

[Immoralkickass]

Its natural for people to powergame, min-max etc. When there are numbers, rules, people will eventually figure out the best option. Even if they are mechanically equal, people will figure out the game's meta and still rank some higher than others.

But D&D has a different balancing compared to computer games. Because the game is always depends on the DM, even if counters are available for something, most of the time people don't pick them.

For example, invisibility and its Greater version are countered by the level 2 spell See Invisibility. People don't pick them because they will never know if they are ever going to need it. If they do pick it, the DM knows, and will probably not put any enemies with invisibility.

Because really, reeeeeally few DMs would go like, 'The Lich tries to kill you with a Power Word: Kill, but it fails because you had more than 100hp!'

 

[Wiseblood]

I disagree with the assertion that All rules are for powergaming.

I might agree that all decision point rules in character creation are for powergaming. ie: put ability scores here or you will suck, pick this xxxx for this ability. Where xxxx can be feat, spell, skill, subclass, race, background is there more? It feels like there are more.....oh yeah ASI and equipment and magic items ...there may be more still and they happen regularly.

In older editions powergaming was well....harder.
In editions prior to Skills and Powers you could really only powergame with race, class, character kits and equipment. With some DMs allowing you to assign ability scores as you saw fit. If you look at this list four out of five had to be done at character creation.

I don't think powergaming is bad. Some choices make sense from a role playing perspective but lets not kid ouselves here. Which came first the idea to use the best weapon in the game or the reason for why your charcter uses it? By the way, "I use it BECAUSE it is the best" is perfectly legit.

You don't drive a supercar for the history of automobiles and engineering. You drive it for the charisma bonus and/or the performance.