Alternative Armor as DR System?

[3catcircus]

Our group has a set of house rules for armor as DR and I'm not really too keen on it. Basically armor has "armor points" - anywhere from 60 to 100+ that subtracts damage off of the PC - kind of like how stoneskin works. I don't care for it for a few reasons:: keeping track of the armor points, the armor now has hardness and hit points as if it were a mundane item, and the fact that non-metal armors get the shaft in terms of their effectiveness. When I suggested the below, the rest of the guys in my group howled and gnashed teeth because it sounded too deadly... Lemme know what you guys think:

"Armor as DR (3catcircus's rendition...)

Armor Class works as it always has in 3.x D&D in terms of determining AC itself. Armor has a DR value equal to it's AC bonus. The armor type will determine what (if any) type of damage (slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning) bypasses the DR. Magical armor add their magical bonus to DR. Shields are included in determining DR. Non-armor, non-shield magic items that increase AC (such as bracers of armor or amulets of natural armor) do not increase DR.

When an attack is made and is successful, the damage is compared to the DR value of the AC. If the damage is less than DR, it has no effect. If damage is greater the DR, the player takes the amount of damage greater than the DR (example - 10 points of slashing damage against DR 8/piercing armor causes 2 hp of damage to the PC).

When damage surpasses the DR value, the armor's AC bonus decreases by one point (simulating the armor being damaged and absorbing the damage that would normally have hit the PC. Magic items get a saving throw to avoid this. Shields are always affected prior to body-worn armor. This results both in reducing the AC and the DR value. When the shield (or armor) is reduced to AC bonus of 0, it is basically in shreds or useless.

Damage that bypasses the DR does full damage to the PC. The AC bonus is not decreased by damage that bypasses it. Note that attacks that could normally do damage to items, such as dragon breath, will trigger an item saving throw if the armor is otherwise not immune to the attack."

Well? Does this sound too deadly, too complicated, or ok?

 

[BiggusGeekus]

You've just made mending the most important spell in the game.

Now, mending will only cover objects up to 1lb. But its a level 0 spell. The very first thing I would do as a wizard player is ask for a level 1 Greater Mending. Heck. Even level 2. Then I'd take some magic item creation feat and make it very clear to the rest of the party that they owe me big time. Now we have full DR for every combat. Huzzah!

The core problem is that D&D is essentially high fantasy. You can do low fantasy with it (c.f. Midnight, Grim Tales) but the system is high fantasy. That's why we have guys in plate armor dodging attacks like Neo in the Matrix.

Possible suggestions:
1) Armor is only damaged from a critical strike
2) The most AC can be lowered is 3
3) Make the saving throw for magic armor really easy. That stuff is expensive. Later in the game, you may as well just kill a fighter off when you take his armor.


This still makes Greater Mending a smart move, the rate of return is lower though. But you're still sticking it to the armor-wearing classes. Honesly, if I was a player, I'd be a monk.

 

[3catcircus]

Thanks for the feedback. Funny you should mention mending - my whole conjuration of this alternative armor as DR system stemmed from the fact that no one seemed to be using the existing house rule, especially the section on armor repair... The guy who came up with the armor DR house rules also came up with a whole set of rules for armor repair, including some magical items to prevent and repair damage.

1. I don't necessarily think that *just* a critical strike should damage armor - how many movies have we seen where the BBEG slices away the good guy's armor bit-by-bit during the final fight scene?

2. This might work, except shields will still always get demolished before the armor takes any damage...

3. I'd probably make the save DC some inverse relationship to the amount of damage the armor has taken. Something like, it starts out at DC 10 - the magical bonus, and for every point of AC it gets reduced, the DC increases by one.

I'm also considering the idea of somehow using damage conversion (i.e. taking non-lethal damage vice lethal damage) with this system.

You've just made mending the most important spell in the game.

Now, mending will only cover objects up to 1lb. But its a level 0 spell. The very first thing I would do as a wizard player is ask for a level 1 Greater Mending. Heck. Even level 2. Then I'd take some magic item creation feat and make it very clear to the rest of the party that they owe me big time. Now we have full DR for every combat. Huzzah!

The core problem is that D&D is essentially high fantasy. You can do low fantasy with it (c.f. Midnight, Grim Tales) but the system is high fantasy. That's why we have guys in plate armor dodging attacks like Neo in the Matrix.

Possible suggestions:
1) Armor is only damaged from a critical strike
2) The most AC can be lowered is 3
3) Make the saving throw for magic armor really easy. That stuff is expensive. Later in the game, you may as well just kill a fighter off when you take his armor.


This still makes Greater Mending a smart move, the rate of return is lower though. But you're still sticking it to the armor-wearing classes. Honesly, if I was a player, I'd be a monk.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Thanks for the feedback. Funny you should mention mending - my whole conjuration of this alternative armor as DR system stemmed from the fact that no one seemed to be using the existing house rule, especially the section on armor repair... The guy who came up with the armor DR house rules also came up with a whole set of rules for armor repair, including some magical items to prevent and repair damage.

OK, I see where you're going here. But, and I'm not trying to be a jerk, for a guy who is kinda-sorta worried about bookkeeping, you're adding a lot of bookkeeping.

Tossing something out at you randomly: take the gp value of the item, that's how many armor points it has. I have no idea where I'm going with that. I'm just tossing it out.

1. I don't necessarily think that *just* a critical strike should damage armor - how many movies have we seen where the BBEG slices away the good guy's armor bit-by-bit during the final fight scene?

Fair enough. But if you're going for low-fantasy cinematic -- and I applaud you for taking that creative direction -- then you may want to look at action points as well.

2. This might work, except shields will still always get demolished before the armor takes any damage...

Shields are underrated in D&D. Always have been.

3. I'd probably make the save DC some inverse relationship to the amount of damage the armor has taken. Something like, it starts out at DC 10 - the magical bonus, and for every point of AC it gets reduced, the DC increases by one.

I'd really think about how this is going to affect the party's finanaces. +1 chain is pretty expensive and if a 6th level guy loses it he is going to be uber-pissed.

I'm also considering the idea of somehow using damage conversion (i.e. taking non-lethal damage vice lethal damage) with this system.

Dude, you really need to consider getting Unearthed Arcana if you don't already have it. The zillion pages on races will probably drive you buggo, but you should try to give the combat section a read. There's a wounds system that I dismissed for my group, but you really should at least sneak into a bookstore and flip through it.

 

[3catcircus]

I'd really think about how this is going to affect the party's finanaces. +1 chain is pretty expensive and if a 6th level guy loses it he is going to be uber-pissed.

Well - my point is that magical armor would get a saving throw *every* time it is hit hard enough to potentially reduce it's AC value - and - it would never go less than the magical bonus.

Dude, you really need to consider getting Unearthed Arcana if you don't already have it. The zillion pages on races will probably drive you buggo, but you should try to give the combat section a read. There's a wounds system that I dismissed for my group, but you really should at least sneak into a bookstore and flip through it.

I have a really hard time justifying buying a product that I'd only use a teeny bit of - more importantly - that I could (and have) come up with similar rules for on my own.

 

[kyberus]

Is this still providing AC aswell as DR or not, as this would open a whole other
ball game in terms of touch attacks and touch spells, etc, or make two handed
weapons and power attack in more prevalent.
Otherwise, interesting stuff, and more consistent.

Has anyone seen the last scene in Polanski's Macbeth?
That was hilarious (the swords kept bouncing off of each others armor, it only
ended when MacBeth tripped and Duff decapitated him before he could stand up)

 

[Rhun]

Tossing something out at you randomly: take the gp value of the item, that's how many armor points it has. I have no idea where I'm going with that. I'm just tossing it out.

Actually, I like this idea...especially since I am getting around to play testing a new armor system in my group that adds limited DR. That would add some necessity to repair the armor every once and a while.

Shields are underrated in D&D. Always have been.

Shields are underrated, and do seem to need some work in D&D. Still, a magical shield can provide enough extra AC bonus to be worth it, sometimes. I'll have to try and work on a new shield system to go along with my armor system.

I'd really think about how this is going to affect the party's finanaces. +1 chain is pretty expensive and if a 6th level guy loses it he is going to be uber-pissed.

The dwarf fighter in my group just lost his Full Plate + 2 to a Rust Monster...he was not happy at all. He is probably going to have to spend every bit of gold gained during the adventure to replace it.

 

[3catcircus]

Yes - here is an example - I am assuming a base DC for armor or shield to avoid losing a point of protection is 5 - AC value - Magical Bonus + damage absorbed:

A fighter with +1 Chain Mail and a +1 Light Steel Shield and Dex 15 has AC 20 (+5 Chainmail +1 Magic on the Chain Mail, +1 Shield, +1 on the Magic on the Shield, Dex +2).

The Chain Mail would probably have DR 6 and the Shield would add DR 2 for a total of DR 8

If he gets hit for 10 points of damage, he'll take 2. He must make a DC 11 (5 - 1 shield - 1 magic + 8 damage absorbed) to avoid losing a point of AC and DR. Assuming he fails, the shield will lose a point of AC and DR, which are now AC 19 and DR 7. Lets say he gets hit again for the same damage. This next hit on the shield wil require a DC 13 (5 - 1 magic + 9 damage absorbed) to avoid being useless.

Is this still providing AC aswell as DR or not, as this would open a whole other
ball game in terms of touch attacks and touch spells, etc, or make two handed
weapons and power attack in more prevalent.
Otherwise, interesting stuff, and more consistent.

Has anyone seen the last scene in Polanski's Macbeth?
That was hilarious (the swords kept bouncing off of each others armor, it only
ended when MacBeth tripped and Duff decapitated him before he could stand up)

 

[Rhun]

If he gets hit for 10 points of damage, he'll take 2. He must make a DC 11 (5 - 1 shield - 1 magic + 8 damage absorbed) to avoid losing a point of AC and DR. Assuming he fails, the shield will lose a point of AC and DR, which are now AC 19 and DR 7. Lets say he gets hit again for the same damage. This next hit on the shield wil require a DC 13 (5 - 1 magic + 9 damage absorbed) to avoid being useless.

The only real problem I have with your method is that it adds a lot more dice rolling into the game. Other than that, I like the concept of the armor suffering from wear and tear.

Another problem (and this is one that I have had in trying to design my armor system too) is the amount of DR provided by the armor. In your example, with a DR of 8, the character cannot be injured by a dagger or handaxe wielded by an average strength character. This simply doesn't fit reality too well, IMHO.

 

[3catcircus]

The only real problem I have with your method is that it adds a lot more dice rolling into the game. Other than that, I like the concept of the armor suffering from wear and tear.

Another problem (and this is one that I have had in trying to design my armor system too) is the amount of DR provided by the armor. In your example, with a DR of 8, the character cannot be injured by a dagger or handaxe wielded by an average strength character. This simply doesn't fit reality too well, IMHO.

I agree with this - I'm thinking maybe instead of a "DR/bypass" system, armor types would have a "DR/half DR" system. For example, chain armor would probably be DR x/Piercing where the DR is halved against piercing weapons like daggers.

I'd probably do something like this:

Plate Armors DR x/Piercing&Bludgeoning - where the weapon was historically specifically designed to punch through plate armors or it's fantasy equivalent - weapons like the Lucerne Hammer or the Gnome Hooked Hammer.

Chain Armors DR x/Piercing

Hard Non-Metallic: DR x/-

Soft Non-Metallic: DR x/bludgeoning

I'll have to do a bit of research on the oriental armors, though