Am I an atypical DM?

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

I think it's important to keep in mind that all of these issues could be huge at 15th level but non-existent 5th. I've noticed in the past that even some of 3e's most outspoken supporters don't play the game past 12th level.

Not true. I've played 1-20th. It's the occasional bad player (cheating, never understanding the rules so he has a cover to cheat, etc) that makes the game slow, not the game itself.

 

[two]

Thinking back over the complaints about 3.5e (and 3e) that have been made during the last few years, I get the feeling I'm playing a different game than other people.

A few instances:

Combat speed: Combat seems to go by pretty fast. It only really slows down when I get the maths-challenged people in the group who can't add up 5d6. Otherwise... bonuses stacking? Buffing? Interacting effects? All pretty easy, and fast. And getting better with the more streamlined monsters in MMIV.

Prep-time: D&D is hard to prep for? I often use monsters straight out of the book, grab maps from anywhere (love the Fantastic Locations maps), traps likewise. NPC creation for the core classes is a dream thanks to the DMG info, and even when I have to create an unusual NPC (like the Frost Dwarf Soulborn 9 from last session), it doesn't take more than half-an-hour, and there's no need for many unusual NPC stats. The hard bit is coming up with the actual plot/story (and that's something that's edition-independent).

If I have a pit trap or monster, a reference to the book I found it in is enough.

Overload of options: I, as the DM, don't need to know how all the abilities my players have work exactly. Let's face it: most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables. If the net effect of an ability is to stun an opponent if it fails a Fort save, then that's pretty easy to deal with. Sure, the players need to know, but they don't have that much to deal with.

New prestige classes and classes? If the concept is compatible with the campaign, why not? It's not like there are going to be more than a handful of these things in the game at any one time, anyway.

Cheers!

Combat can very quickly turn slow-n-ugly. Even something as simple as a night combat around a fire can be impossible using strict RAW rules. Who has concealment? How much? How far does darkvision extend? Low-light? What percent miss chance is it? Let's roll that too. How far does the torch light extend? Bull-eye lantern? Does the enemy have a miss chance? Can the fighter put on plate in a hurry? Yes? No? What feat? Endurance? *looks up feat* No, you can wear it... Even a rules-savvy GM can be overwhemled by a D&D combat with 6+ participants in a slightly (not hugely) complicated environment.

Turning never goes quickly. Keeping track of bonuses can often be quite a pain. Bard song, bless, GMW, rage... does bard song stack with bless? What is GMW at these days? How long does the rage last? Each question is trivial in iteslf; clumped together, they can be a pain.

Then there is the "let's avoid the AOO" movement stuff. Even just normal sensible party play (you go there, you go there, no I wanna go there, I'll flank, you do that) takes a long time to resolve. I've seen 10+ min-per-round combat sessions. Often.

Prep time is brutal for levels 6+. Create an NPC Wiz who doesn't suck (level 10, say), get the spells/theme picked, get DC's, get skills, get equipment, get level up bumps, get rough skill set, get hp's... then do rough tactics, special tactics, defensive spells, common buffs... then you have to make the apprentice(s).

Yes you can handwave a lot of it. But if you really want a legitamite (tough) well defended sensible good-feat choice wiz/sorcerer/cleric/etc NPC it takes a long time. 30 min? 1 hour? at levels 10+ it's often more than an hour. This isn't fun for many.

"Let's face it: most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables. If the net effect of an ability is to stun an opponent if it fails a Fort save, then that's pretty easy to deal with. Sure, the players need to know, but they don't have that much to deal with."

You baldly and blandly assert this. D&D 3.5 is the most complex game ever published (with regards to number of rules and page count). There are not a few variables. There are hundreds of variables. Even to do something like stun an opponent you need to know how the stun is delivered (hit? what is the bonus to hit? is it tough or melee) and the stun DC. Is it a spell? Does casting it provoke AOO in this case? Does the dwarf get a special racial bonus against the spell (yet another variable)? What is the effect if any for a made save. And if you do fail, what does "STUN" actually do in the game (look it up, likely).

If you really believe:

"most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables"

I would suggest, mildly, you page through any moster manual and count up the number of feats/abilities/defenses/etc. you come across... (these are all "variables" which must be "manipulated") then open any spell book and start tallying up the variables found in there... just look at WEB for example... are there anchoring points? What ARE anchoring points, anyway? What is the spread/radius? Range? What does entangling do, anyway? Is there SR? What is the save? Effect of making the save? How long does it last? Burning it does what? For how long? (this is 1/2 of the questions you might have for one spell...of thousands)...

++++++

In general, I find many of your posts knee-jerk in defense of all things WOTC. But this is baffling. It's OK if D&D is sometimes mind-bogglingly complex. It's a big, big game. Complex games take time to play -- combat is often much slower than anyone wants.

You might think people are complaining overmuch about slow combat... and your "defense" is to claim simplicity for D&D...

D&D is not simple nor straightforward; particularly at levels 6-8+. Above level 15, it can be an absolute nightmare, even with players/GM focussed on speed.

If you have managed to tame this complexity and it works well for you and your group: fine.

You might even want to give us some tips at speeding up combat.

But don't try to tell us D&D isn't a huge, complex game!

 

[an_idol_mind]

In general, I find many of your posts knee-jerk in defense of all things WOTC.

Most of the folks on this thread have simply stated how they play. I don't see that as a knee-jerk reaction that defends WotC at all.

You might think people are complaining overmuch about slow combat... and your "defense" is to claim simplicity for D&D...

It's not really a defense. There's no agenda here. Most of the posters seem to just be talking about how they game. There's no one on here going out of their way to defend WotC.

D&D is not simple nor straightforward; particularly at levels 6-8+. Above level 15, it can be an absolute nightmare, even with players/GM focussed on speed.

It really depends on how you play it. Yes, if you look up every modifier, effect, and attack of opportunity, the game gets bogged down very quickly. But if a group is doing that, I think they've made their own bed and have to lie in it. The rules are best used as guidelines; it's okay to forget certain modifiers or even throw certain things out the window to speed matters up.

 

[Barak]

Combat can very quickly turn slow-n-ugly. Even something as simple as a night combat around a fire can be impossible using strict RAW rules. Who has concealment? How much? How far does darkvision extend? Low-light? What percent miss chance is it? Let's roll that too. How far does the torch light extend? Bull-eye lantern? Does the enemy have a miss chance? Can the fighter put on plate in a hurry? Yes? No? What feat? Endurance? *looks up feat* No, you can wear it... Even a rules-savvy GM can be overwhemled by a D&D combat with 6+ participants in a slightly (not hugely) complicated environment.

Without looking at a rulebook.. Darkvision is easy, whatever footage they have will work no matter what, barring magical darkness. Torch is 30'. Low-light vision double what a "normal" vision gives. Plate (I'm assuming Full Plate) takes 4 minutes to put on, with help, and can't be put on without help or in a hurry. Endurance allows you to have slept in medium armor, that's it as far as the situation goes.

I'll admit I don't know off the top of my head the range of a bull-eye (bull's-eye, I think) lantern. But that's because in 5 years of playing 3E, it's never been used. Certainly not during the night for watch duty. As for who has concealment.. Well now we established vision, so whoever is beyond the range of somebody else's vision has total concealment.

There, that wasn't so hard.

Turning never goes quickly. Keeping track of bonuses can often be quite a pain. Bard song, bless, GMW, rage... does bard song stack with bless? What is GMW at these days? How long does the rage last? Each question is trivial in iteslf; clumped together, they can be a pain.

Again, without a rule book.. The player of the cleric should know the turning rules. Off the top of my head, it's d20+Cha modifier, look on table it gives you a modifier to the cleric's level, that's the highest HD the cleric can turn. 2d6+Cha modifier+cleric level= total HDs turned. Anything half or lower than the cleric level is destroyed instead. I could be slightly wrong here, but like I said, it's the cleric's job to know that.

Except for Dodge, no bonuses of the same name stack. Unnamed bonuses stack with everything, even themselves. It's that easy. People should know what type of bonus their crap gives. Bard song is a morale bonus, bless is morale, GMW is enhancement. So no, bard's song doesn't stack with blass. GMW is related to caster level, so it depends on the... wait for it.. Caster's level! Which doesn't change all that often. Rage last 3+(newly modified)Con modifier rounds.

Not much of a pain.

Then there is the "let's avoid the AOO" movement stuff. Even just normal sensible party play (you go there, you go there, no I wanna go there, I'll flank, you do that) takes a long time to resolve. I've seen 10+ min-per-round combat sessions. Often.

If it takes 10 minutes per round, you either have a very large group, or rather dim players. Avoiding AoOs isn't that hard.

Prep time is brutal for levels 6+. Create an NPC Wiz who doesn't suck (level 10, say), get the spells/theme picked, get DC's, get skills, get equipment, get level up bumps, get rough skill set, get hp's... then do rough tactics, special tactics, defensive spells, common buffs... then you have to make the apprentice(s).

Here you are just staking stuff, hoping the list will be long enough to appear to be an hassle. I'll just argue one. get DC's? dude. 10+stat modifier+spell level. If that is hard.. Or skills.. Depending on the use of the NPC, that can be skipped entirely. Pick relevant skills, than assume the rest is spent on stuff that'll never come up. Come on.

Yes you can handwave a lot of it. But if you really want a legitamite (tough) well defended sensible good-feat choice wiz/sorcerer/cleric/etc NPC it takes a long time. 30 min? 1 hour? at levels 10+ it's often more than an hour. This isn't fun for many.

"Let's face it: most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables. If the net effect of an ability is to stun an opponent if it fails a Fort save, then that's pretty easy to deal with. Sure, the players need to know, but they don't have that much to deal with."

You baldly and blandly assert this. D&D 3.5 is the most complex game ever published (with regards to number of rules and page count). There are not a few variables. There are hundreds of variables. Even to do something like stun an opponent you need to know how the stun is delivered (hit? what is the bonus to hit? is it tough or melee) and the stun DC. Is it a spell? Does casting it provoke AOO in this case? Does the dwarf get a special racial bonus against the spell (yet another variable)? What is the effect if any for a made save. And if you do fail, what does "STUN" actually do in the game (look it up, likely).

If you really believe:

"most of D&D is the manipulation of only a few variables"

I would suggest, mildly, you page through any moster manual and count up the number of feats/abilities/defenses/etc. you come across... (these are all "variables" which must be "manipulated") then open any spell book and start tallying up the variables found in there... just look at WEB for example... are there anchoring points? What ARE anchoring points, anyway? What is the spread/radius? Range? What does entangling do, anyway? Is there SR? What is the save? Effect of making the save? How long does it last? Burning it does what? For how long? (this is 1/2 of the questions you might have for one spell...of thousands)...

It took you longer to type this than to resolve any situation 10x over.

 

[Gargoyle]

I'm only being half-serious here (and I'm certainly not trying to single out the OP) but when I hear people talk about how quickly and easily they can run 3E and 3.5, and don't understand what other people complain about, it makes me think of the following:

Perhaps you are really good when it comes to the technical aspects of DMing. You can keep all the numbers straight with minimal effort, you don't need much prep time, and your combats move like a well-oiled machine.

On the other hand... maybe you're just sloppy. Perhaps all the detail doesn't bother you because you don't pay enough attention to it. (How does it go? "If everyone around you is panicking, but you're managing to remain calm, you probably don't understand the situation.") Prepping NPCs and monsters doesn't take much of your time, because they're unambitious and cookie-cutter. But your game still has enough redeeming features that this doesn't matter that much, or your players simply don't care about this kind of stuff either - so everyone's happy.

This is a good point. It's hard to rate yourself as a DM, unless you've been a player in a lot of other games. I have been in a few, but I haven't played nearly as much as I've DM'd.

It could be that I'm very sloppy. If I'm that clueless, I probably don't even realized it. Ah, ignorance is bliss. Don't wake me up, and don't tell my players.

But I don't think so. I'm reasonably good with the rules and with running various RPGs.

It could be that I'm an "expert" with D&D. I've played in games ran by great DM's : Piratecat, James Wyatt, and other some great people no one here would know. I'm not that good. My games are not exactly well-oiled machines, and my campaign worlds are not that intriguing. If they were, my lack of modesty wouldn't prevent me from calling myself an expert, even here.

So I think I know enough to know I'm somewhere in the middle of the DM competency ladder. I know what stats are important to have handy, and which ones I can generate on the fly. For instance, I know I need detailed stats on the main villain in an encounter, but I can throw some stock stat block together for his thugs, and probably have some of those numbers memorized. Anyway, their attack rolls and AC are usually unimportant anyway since they hit and get missed on high rolls. I have one or two "interesting" NPC's or monsters per session, but yes, most of the rest are cookie-cutter.

I would say that I know my players too. I have a good idea of what their playstyle is, and how to make the game fun for them. I certainly am the number one authority on the campaign world and the adventure, since I wrote them both.

Another point in my favor, sort of, is that neither my players or I have much time to play or prepare for the game. Cookie cutter NPC's are sometimes interesting enough because we don't play all the time. Plus, we have to be efficient. When we first started playing 3E, we weren't and wasted many hours. Now we get down to the business of having fun quickly.

I'm a firm believer that I'm a fairly average DM, not nearly as bad as some games I've played in, not nearly as good as others.

One thing regarding prep time: Electronic tools help me with D&D quite a bit. If it weren't for e-tools, I wouldn't run D&D 3.5, or at least, I wouldn't use more than the core rules. If they ever produce a D&D 4th edition without good electronic support, it will be the first time I don't upgrade. I couldn't deal with more than 3.5 core without e-tools and some other stuff. I don't typically buy rules expansions for non-D&D games, so I haven't had trouble with "option proliferation" when playing other systems. This is certainly a love/hate thing for me. I love all the options, but dislike the extra time some of my players take making characters and figuring out the rules.

 

[Lanefan]

Without looking at a rulebook.. Darkvision is easy, whatever footage they have will work no matter what, barring magical darkness. Torch is 30'. Low-light vision double what a "normal" vision gives. Plate (I'm assuming Full Plate) takes 4 minutes to put on, with help, and can't be put on without help or in a hurry. Endurance allows you to have slept in medium armor, that's it as far as the situation goes.

You've memorized more of the rules than many have, I suspect.

Again, without a rule book.. The player of the cleric should know the turning rules. Off the top of my head, it's d20+Cha modifier, look on table it gives you a modifier to the cleric's level, that's the highest HD the cleric can turn. 2d6+Cha modifier+cleric level= total HDs turned. Anything half or lower than the cleric level is destroyed instead. I could be slightly wrong here, but like I said, it's the cleric's job to know that.

Except for Dodge, no bonuses of the same name stack. Unnamed bonuses stack with everything, even themselves. It's that easy. People should know what type of bonus their crap gives. Bard song is a morale bonus, bless is morale, GMW is enhancement. So no, bard's song doesn't stack with blass. GMW is related to caster level, so it depends on the... wait for it.. Caster's level! Which doesn't change all that often. Rage last 3+(newly modified)Con modifier rounds.

Yep. The trick is knowing and remembering which items, spells, or abilities give what type of bonuses; my memory for this type of thing is awful even as a player, never mind as DM.

If it takes 10 minutes per round, you either have a very large group, or rather dim players.

I'm not sure what this says about our lot, then, where half-hour rounds are not all that rare...

Lanefan

 

[BryonD]

I'm only being half-serious here (and I'm certainly not trying to single out the OP) but when I hear people talk about how quickly and easily they can run 3E and 3.5, and don't understand what other people complain about, it makes me think of the following:

Perhaps you are really good when it comes to the technical aspects of DMing. You can keep all the numbers straight with minimal effort, you don't need much prep time, and your combats move like a well-oiled machine.

On the other hand... maybe you're just sloppy. Perhaps all the detail doesn't bother you because you don't pay enough attention to it. (How does it go? "If everyone around you is panicking, but you're managing to remain calm, you probably don't understand the situation.") Prepping NPCs and monsters doesn't take much of your time, because they're unambitious and cookie-cutter. But your game still has enough redeeming features that this doesn't matter that much, or your players simply don't care about this kind of stuff either - so everyone's happy.

Are you agreeing then that there are people in the first category?

And certainly one would not suggest that there are not sloppy GMs in other systems.

I'm quite confident that both "hands" exist across the board. As such, I don't see it as really adding much to the discussion.

 

[MerricB]

I'm only being half-serious here (and I'm certainly not trying to single out the OP) but when I hear people talk about how quickly and easily they can run 3E and 3.5, and don't understand what other people complain about, it makes me think of the following:

Perhaps you are really good when it comes to the technical aspects of DMing. You can keep all the numbers straight with minimal effort, you don't need much prep time, and your combats move like a well-oiled machine.

The first option applies to me. I'm good at the technical aspects of DMing. There's no doubt about that. I have a really good memory when it comes to rules. (Although there are conditions that still baffle me. Dazzled? What's that do?)

Her are the things that I think are really important for good play of D&D 3.5e:

* Preparation. Know what you have to prepare and what you can get from another source. If I need a 14th level fighter, I go to the tables in the DMG (and, recently, the PHB2), and make use of those to quickly work out the basics of the fighter and then add the embellishing touches. If I need a low-level orc barbarian... hey there's one in MMIV!

* Preparation. Don't work out DCs during play. MMIV is great: it lists all the DCs that are relevant. (Indeed, I think, so does the 3.5e MM). A monster with a stunning attack lists Melee slam +14 (2d6+8 plus Stun, DC 21). At that point, the only thing I need to know is what Stun does, which leads me on to my next point...

* Memory. If something comes up frequently, then you need to remember it. Stun is hardly an uncommon condition in my games, so I know what it does. Dazzled is rare, but I know where it's described. (One of the best things about 3.5e: glossaries!) If, after three sessions with the cleric casting bless and the bard singing you *don't* know they stack, then you're going to have a problem. Well, maybe not you... next point...

* Responsible Players. 3e does assume that the players know how their characters work and interact. (Sure, as the DM I can often help them, but it works better when they know). If one is playing a monk, then he should have the DC of his stunning attack written down as well as knowing what Stun means. Look: this is something that should come up every session! Why shouldn't he be prepared. Then too, if the cleric is blessing and the bard is singing, surely they should know how they interact? And after needing to know the first time, they should remember it.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

You've memorized more of the rules than many have, I suspect.
Yep. The trick is knowing and remembering which items, spells, or abilities give what type of bonuses; my memory for this type of thing is awful even as a player, never mind as DM.

Heh. Cheat sheets help muchly in these situations. Having a sheet with summaries of your spells/abilities that says "Bless +1 morale bonus to attack and saves vs fear" cuts out a lot of drama.

I'm not sure what this says about our lot, then, where half-hour rounds are not all that rare...

Pizza-deprived, maybe?

I've run campaigns from 1st-15th level - my Age of Worms campaign (currently at 14th) will be the first to breach the cap. I've noticed a distinct slowing down of combat recently. It's not AoOs. My groups (and I play with 15 players regularly) have never had trouble dealing with those. No, it's their problems with basic maths. I gave the go-ahead last week for the druid to use his PDA to roll his flame strike damage. (Of course, we had a session with no combat whatsoever!)

I'm curious, though: why do your rounds take so long? Number of players? Level of campaign? Ordering a new pizza in the middle of each?

Cheers!

 

[Gold Roger]

I'm only being half-serious here (and I'm certainly not trying to single out the OP) but when I hear people talk about how quickly and easily they can run 3E and 3.5, and don't understand what other people complain about, it makes me think of the following:

Perhaps you are really good when it comes to the technical aspects of DMing. You can keep all the numbers straight with minimal effort, you don't need much prep time, and your combats move like a well-oiled machine.

On the other hand... maybe you're just sloppy. Perhaps all the detail doesn't bother you because you don't pay enough attention to it. (How does it go? "If everyone around you is panicking, but you're managing to remain calm, you probably don't understand the situation.") Prepping NPCs and monsters doesn't take much of your time, because they're unambitious and cookie-cutter. But your game still has enough redeeming features that this doesn't matter that much, or your players simply don't care about this kind of stuff either - so everyone's happy.

I'm somewhere in between. Me and my group certainly know how to quicken up a combat, I'm our groups worst case of a powergamer and don't mind spending some time working out the stats of an important NPC.

But I'll also be the first to admit that minor NPC's sometimes have incomplete statblocks and even more often no statblocks at all (the math for average HP sometimes takes some seconds, though). Sometimes I'm just lazy, but other times those stats are improvised simply because I have no way of knowing it would come up. Likewise, I just can't remember all rules and I've got a simple policy for such cases: ask if one of the players knows it. If not they have either found the correct page before I can stop them from looking it up, or I'll make a quick and dirty ruling and we go on and look it up after the game.

A lot hinges on the players anyway. If the players know their PC's rules that speeds up the game considerably. We have no "rule police", if a player gets a rule wrong, he gets corrected sooner or later, if I get a rule wrong, I'll get corrected sooner or later. As long as the game flows and a certain amount of consistency is held, we are all ok with it.

Of course YMMV, but I think a certain dose of sloppyness is a good thing in DMing. After all, we are all in it to have fun first of all.