Am I nuts or could this possibly be one of the most powerful builds I've ever seen?

[Diirk]

I think the downside to this idea is that you can wildshape into alot of stuff, but the duration is low. Like 0 hours low. Master of Many forms doesn't appear to raise the duration of wild shape at all and since you aren't a bison, and don't have it from any other source...

For confirmation, see the sample master of many forms in Complete Adventurer.. druid 5/momf 2, has 5 hour duration wild shape.

 

[reveal]

I think the downside to this idea is that you can wildshape into alot of stuff, but the duration is low. Like 0 hours low. Master of Many forms doesn't appear to raise the duration of wild shape at all and since you aren't a bison, and don't have it from any other source...

For confirmation, see the sample master of many forms in Complete Adventurer.. druid 5/momf 2, has 5 hour duration wild shape.

You're right the duration is extremely low. But that's why you take 1 level of druid; so you can shift for 1 hour. And you can shift 12 times a day (4 from the 11th level druid deal and 8 from an 8th level MoMF).

 

[foxylady]

Most powerful? Compared to what? It's a good melee build, but as usual a high-level wizard or cleric would own this character. Add some PrCs to optimize a full-caster build and the differential widens. At mid-levels this build is powerful, but Shapechange is still better than anything it can do, and the caster with Shapechange gets Wish, Meteor Swarm, and Horrid Wilting as trivial bonuses.

 

[reveal]

Most powerful? Compared to what? It's a good melee build, but as usual a high-level wizard or cleric would own this character. Add some PrCs to optimize a full-caster build and the differential widens. At mid-levels this build is powerful, but Shapechange is still better than anything it can do, and the caster with Shapechange gets Wish, Meteor Swarm, and Horrid Wilting as trivial bonuses.

The character itself is a wuss. Any other character could beat it in a straight fight. It's what it can shift in to that is the powerful part. For example, the Arcane Ooze from MM3.

With this build, I can become a Huge Ooze. I have a base attack of +11/grapple of +24. I do 2d6+7 plus 2d6 acid damage. Automatic on a successful grapple. I am immune to any magic that grants spell resistance. Any spellcaster within 60 feet of me must make a Fort save (DC 19 for this particular character) or lose a random spell of the highest level that the spellcaster has available. And not when the spellcaster tries to cast. Every time the spellcasters begins its turn within 60 feet of me. I also gain temporary hit points from this taking of spells. Oh and I have 202 hp. And if I shape into something different, which is only a move equivalent, I get full hp again.

So, again, it's not the character itself. It's what the character can potentially change into that makes it so darned powerful.

 

[Diirk]

You're right the duration is extremely low. But that's why you take 1 level of druid; so you can shift for 1 hour. And you can shift 12 times a day (4 from the 11th level druid deal and 8 from an 8th level MoMF).

Thats a bit debateable... level 1 druids don't have any form of wildshaping, they don't start getting 1 hour/level duration til level 5. And you can only shift 8 times a day, that 11th level druid deal only applies to cows at will, there's no numerical cap on that. Likewise you can't shift into an arcane ooze as a free action, thats reserved for the cow.

The character itself is a wuss. Any other character could beat it in a straight fight. It's what it can shift in to that is the powerful part. For example, the Arcane Ooze from MM3.

With this build, I can become a Huge Ooze. I have a base attack of +11/grapple of +24. I do 2d6+7 plus 2d6 acid damage. Automatic on a successful grapple. I am immune to any magic that grants spell resistance. Any spellcaster within 60 feet of me must make a Fort save (DC 19 for this particular character) or lose a random spell of the highest level that the spellcaster has available. And not when the spellcaster tries to cast. Every time the spellcasters begins its turn within 60 feet of me. I also gain temporary hit points from this taking of spells. Oh and I have 202 hp. And if I shape into something different, which is only a move equivalent, I get full hp again.

So, again, it's not the character itself. It's what the character can potentially change into that makes it so darned powerful.

Unfortunately you've made a big mistake here... you're capped by your HD as to what you can shapechange into. Now, there's nothing in the MoMF text saying its levels stack with druid levels for wild shape purposes (HD limits etc), but I'm assuming its meant to be there.. which would mean you could wildshape into things of 8 HD or less (MoMF levels only.. your 1 druid level has no wildshape abilities). Unfortunately a huge arcane ooze has 15 HD.

On the other hand if you want to turn into a big cow you have a 19 HD limit !

 

[The Iron Mark]

Actually, read the template. The wild shape from it is really REALLY good. It's at will (hello wild feats!), a free action, and it has infinite duration. MoMF let's you get around the limitation of what you can change into, that's the whole point. You do have to take one level before MoMF I believe, so as to get the required feats for it.

Also, if you search on the WotC boards, you'll find that twice, CustServ has said to two different people that the MoMF is supposed to have wilding, as in it should increase your HD cap for what you can turn into.

I got all of this from the thread on the char opt. boards there, you should check it out .

 

[Diirk]

Right, MoMF expands on what you can normally turn into. And the hathor thingy limits what you can normally turn into.

Thus, if you use your hathor 'at will' wildshape you can turn into any giant, ooze, etc etc that you want with 19hd or less SO LONG AS ITS A COW.

You can use your MoMF extra wildshape uses (with a 0-1 hour duration depending how nice the DM is and a move action to use them) to turn into non-cow forms, but then you're limited to 8-9 HD forms.

Of course you could argue he doesn't qualify as all as MoMF doesn't require 'wild shape ability', it specifically requires 'wild shape class ability'... which he doesn't have. He has a racial ability. And there's the fact that the template says its usually applied to humans of 6 or more HD as well... these kind of things point to any sane DM not allowing it.

 

[Impeesa]

Actually, read the template. The wild shape from it is really REALLY good. It's at will (hello wild feats!), a free action, and it has infinite duration. MoMF let's you get around the limitation of what you can change into, that's the whole point. You do have to take one level before MoMF I believe, so as to get the required feats for it.

Also, if you search on the WotC boards, you'll find that twice, CustServ has said to two different people that the MoMF is supposed to have wilding, as in it should increase your HD cap for what you can turn into.

I got all of this from the thread on the char opt. boards there, you should check it out .

Quoted for truthery. Although whether or not I'd allow the template for a PC is debateable (it also makes you a non-native outsider), as I read it a Ftr 1/MoMF 9 with the template can wildshape at will, as a free action, into forms of up to 20 HD for 20 hours at a time (virtual druid level of 11, plus MoMF 9 - errata gives wilding). It's pretty cool.

Right, MoMF expands on what you can normally turn into. And the hathor thingy limits what you can normally turn into.

Thus, if you use your hathor 'at will' wildshape you can turn into any giant, ooze, etc etc that you want with 19hd or less SO LONG AS ITS A COW.

Sounds good. Let's continue this train of thought. Let's say I take the normal Druid 5 route into MoMF. I can wildshape into any animal. MoMF 1 allows me to wildshape into humanoids. If I want to use my Druid wildshaping to do that, though, I can turn into any humanoid I like so long as it's an animal.

Right. :\

MoMF exists for the purpose of expanding your range of potential wildshape options, wherever you happen to get that wildshape ability from.

--Impeesa--

 

[Diirk]

Sounds good. Let's continue this train of thought. Let's say I take the normal Druid 5 route into MoMF. I can wildshape into any animal. MoMF 1 allows me to wildshape into humanoids. If I want to use my Druid wildshaping to do that, though, I can turn into any humanoid I like so long as it's an animal.

Wildshape lets you turn into any animal typed creature. Later on its expanded to allow you to turn into plants and animals as well. Some feats also let you turn into various other creatures, such as dragons, vermin etc. Master of Many Forms also expands on the list of types you can change into.

Now the Hathor template gives you an ability that is based on wildshape.. but it has extra restrictions. Instead of being able to turn into any animal (as a druid of 11th level normally could), you can only change into those allowable by the particular sect. In this case, a cow.

Your argument is that because their list of supported wild shape types is upgraded, adding humanoids etc, that their template ability should be able to change into these new types. However you're conveniently ignoring the fact that the templated wild shape ability grants the ability to turn into any animal already... and yet you can't. The restriction on species prevents it. That restriction remains on anything to do with the templates abilities, there's no getting around it.

Now, if you got wild shape from some other source (such as the extra uses MoMF gives, or druid levels) then fine, but they'd have to be used seperately.

 

[monboesen]

Dude its simple. The guys who made that bison template did not know about the Master of many forms. Likewise the guys who put Master of many forms together likely did not know or factor in this template. They are clearly not meant to work together and to assume that they should borders on the willfully ignorant.

MoMF is meant to be for Druids or monsters with natural shapeshifting ability. Its too good even as it stands. All that nonsense about shapechange being better and so on. Yeah that might be right, but the majority of games do not involve 17+ level PC's which more or less rules out shapechange. They do however often involve 9-14 level PC's and at those levels MoMF overpowers all other melee classes (depending only on how the dm interprets the requirement of familarity with the form).

In short, no I do not think it should work or that it even would make for a fun game (at least not for the other non-MoMF players).