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Am I punishing these players too much/little?
- Thread starter Arthur Tealeaf
- Start date
I can't believe that happened.
As a DM, though, the issue is not whether they heard but whether their characters did implausible things because they heard it. In my view, in-game punishment is only legitimate if they used the knowledge irresponsibly.
As a human being, though, what kind of people spy on private conversations!? My feeling here is that the main transgression is not a game-based one but a socially-based one. I therefore think this should be addressed not through game mechanics but through social avenues. Like many other alleged gaming problems presented on ENWorld, this is a social problem disguised as a D&D problem.
EDIT: So I agree with Kid Charlemagne. This kind of behaviour is not acceptable social behaviour and if it continues, stop socializing with these people.
As a DM, though, the issue is not whether they heard but whether their characters did implausible things because they heard it. In my view, in-game punishment is only legitimate if they used the knowledge irresponsibly.
As a human being, though, what kind of people spy on private conversations!? My feeling here is that the main transgression is not a game-based one but a socially-based one. I therefore think this should be addressed not through game mechanics but through social avenues. Like many other alleged gaming problems presented on ENWorld, this is a social problem disguised as a D&D problem.
EDIT: So I agree with Kid Charlemagne. This kind of behaviour is not acceptable social behaviour and if it continues, stop socializing with these people.
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Look_a_Unicorn
First Post
I agree that talking is useful, but for all the hand-waving the players showed a lot of disrespect for the GM, then lied to cover their butts. People expect to be punished if they do somethng wrong. You must show them that you won't stand for it.
Otherwise they'll assume they can get away with anything with a slap on the wrist (btw start looking at their dice when they roll. You may be unpleasently surprised.)
1000XP is a good punishment in the context of "I'm your GM, not your biatch".
XP loss & warning of expulsion is even better.
Otherwise they'll assume they can get away with anything with a slap on the wrist (btw start looking at their dice when they roll. You may be unpleasently surprised.)
1000XP is a good punishment in the context of "I'm your GM, not your biatch".
XP loss & warning of expulsion is even better.
The average age in my gaming group is over 40.
The player who lied to you, the one who suddenly started claiming he had guessed, would be out of the game for that. The remaining players would hear a brief and polite message from me over my expectations at the start of my next session. i mean polite, Start from the premise of "i did not get this across to you. thats my bad."
there is too little time to spend on the nonsense and i agree that punishment is uncalled for and not worth bothering with.
This of course might be a different answer if my group had an average age of 12-15 of course.
The player who lied to you, the one who suddenly started claiming he had guessed, would be out of the game for that. The remaining players would hear a brief and polite message from me over my expectations at the start of my next session. i mean polite, Start from the premise of "i did not get this across to you. thats my bad."
there is too little time to spend on the nonsense and i agree that punishment is uncalled for and not worth bothering with.
This of course might be a different answer if my group had an average age of 12-15 of course.
I think 1k xp for a level 5 character is a fine warning shot... however, it's a warning shot for something like level loss.
Personally, if the biggest immediate punishment I planned to muster was expulsion from the game, I'd tell the player to take the next session off and be explicit in stating what he did to be told to not come. If he likes having that free day, he can feel free to continue the disrespectful behavior for the last 6 hours of gaming he got out of me. He'd lose out whatever experience the others got for the session, the fun times to boot, and it wouldn't be so much a matter of "Hand Of God I Control Your IN GAME STUFF RARR."
Personally, if the biggest immediate punishment I planned to muster was expulsion from the game, I'd tell the player to take the next session off and be explicit in stating what he did to be told to not come. If he likes having that free day, he can feel free to continue the disrespectful behavior for the last 6 hours of gaming he got out of me. He'd lose out whatever experience the others got for the session, the fun times to boot, and it wouldn't be so much a matter of "Hand Of God I Control Your IN GAME STUFF RARR."
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just__al
First Post
The only punishment involved should be scorn and derision from the other players. You as DM shouldn't even NEED to get involved. If another player did that while I was playing I'd laugh at them and call them all kinds of names. Of course in my ideal world the players would NEVER EVER have to leave the table because they'd be mature enough not to act on non-character knowledge.
When I DM I actually don't like to split up the players because I put a lot of work into making the game fun and I want everybody who took the time out of their schedules to play in my game to get the whole experience and not miss part of the story because their character "isn't there"
When I DM I actually don't like to split up the players because I put a lot of work into making the game fun and I want everybody who took the time out of their schedules to play in my game to get the whole experience and not miss part of the story because their character "isn't there"
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There are two ways to deal with this, as mentioned: In game and Out of game.
Out of game, a simple talk would suffice -- here is what metagaming is, here is why I don't want to see it in my game, and if I do see it in the game, it tells me that you're cheating, and therefore, you're going to be kicked out. As a DM, you should be able to have that private conversation right there in the room with the other players, and the other players should have their heads out of their back pockets enough to avoid using any of their in-character knowledge. In the same vein, your players should be able to make a Spot, Sense Motive, or Search check, roll a 1, and say, "Okay, no problem there, full speed ahead!" instead of saying, "Well, I don't see anything, but maybe I should check again, just to be sure."
In game, my solution would be simple. Observe:
DM: Hey, P1, come out into the kitchen with me for a private conversation. (goes into kitchen, knowing that group is eavesdropping) The elf says, "When you get to the temple, you'll see a giant red ruby. The person who touches it will gain permanent mightiness and become so physically powerful that rocks will bounce off his chest like sand."
P2: Bwaha, I'm eavesdropping! I'm sneaky! Ya-hoil!
DM: Hey, P1, good conversation. (Comes back into room.) Okay, you all head out and show up at the temple. It appears to have been the site of a major battle.
P2: Is there anything interesting, um, like a giant ruby?
DM: Why, yes.
P1: I head for --
P2: I run over and grab the ruby!
DM: Okay, as you touch it, a beam of red light flares out. The rest of you are momentarily blinded, and when you can all see again, P2's PC, and all of his items, have been turned into stone.
P2: Hey! That's not what you told P1 would happen!
P1: Dude, no kidding. Good thing I didn't touch that thing.
P2: Suck!
DM: A moment later, an anvil falls from the ceiling and crushes the statue of P2's character. You'll need a resurrection spell to bring him back now.
P2: Oh, man! This is so--
DM: What is that? A Gust of Wind trap? D'oh, it looks like most of P2's PC's body has blown away. I guess it's gonna be a TRUE resurrection or Wish now. Man, too bad you ran over and grabbed that ruby like that. Hey, P3, your bard sees something written over where the ruby was resting. Your Decipher Script check reveals that it says, "Cursed Ruby: Do Not Touch".
P1: Ah, if only he'd stopped and waited for us to search for traps.
P2: But you told him what it would be!!!
And at that point, if P2 hasn't figured out that you are going to use each and every one of his little cheating experiences to utterly shaft him, you should give up and start pelting him with four-sided dice until he leaves.
Out of game, a simple talk would suffice -- here is what metagaming is, here is why I don't want to see it in my game, and if I do see it in the game, it tells me that you're cheating, and therefore, you're going to be kicked out. As a DM, you should be able to have that private conversation right there in the room with the other players, and the other players should have their heads out of their back pockets enough to avoid using any of their in-character knowledge. In the same vein, your players should be able to make a Spot, Sense Motive, or Search check, roll a 1, and say, "Okay, no problem there, full speed ahead!" instead of saying, "Well, I don't see anything, but maybe I should check again, just to be sure."
In game, my solution would be simple. Observe:
DM: Hey, P1, come out into the kitchen with me for a private conversation. (goes into kitchen, knowing that group is eavesdropping) The elf says, "When you get to the temple, you'll see a giant red ruby. The person who touches it will gain permanent mightiness and become so physically powerful that rocks will bounce off his chest like sand."
P2: Bwaha, I'm eavesdropping! I'm sneaky! Ya-hoil!
DM: Hey, P1, good conversation. (Comes back into room.) Okay, you all head out and show up at the temple. It appears to have been the site of a major battle.
P2: Is there anything interesting, um, like a giant ruby?
DM: Why, yes.
P1: I head for --
P2: I run over and grab the ruby!
DM: Okay, as you touch it, a beam of red light flares out. The rest of you are momentarily blinded, and when you can all see again, P2's PC, and all of his items, have been turned into stone.
P2: Hey! That's not what you told P1 would happen!
P1: Dude, no kidding. Good thing I didn't touch that thing.
P2: Suck!
DM: A moment later, an anvil falls from the ceiling and crushes the statue of P2's character. You'll need a resurrection spell to bring him back now.
P2: Oh, man! This is so--
DM: What is that? A Gust of Wind trap? D'oh, it looks like most of P2's PC's body has blown away. I guess it's gonna be a TRUE resurrection or Wish now. Man, too bad you ran over and grabbed that ruby like that. Hey, P3, your bard sees something written over where the ruby was resting. Your Decipher Script check reveals that it says, "Cursed Ruby: Do Not Touch".
P1: Ah, if only he'd stopped and waited for us to search for traps.
P2: But you told him what it would be!!!
And at that point, if P2 hasn't figured out that you are going to use each and every one of his little cheating experiences to utterly shaft him, you should give up and start pelting him with four-sided dice until he leaves.
That's really wierd. I'd never even think of having a conversation in private, away from half the players. I mean, come on--you're asking for them to do something like eavesdrop. Imagine this scene:
Player 1: Hey...
Player 2: Yeah?
Player 1: DM and Player 3 have been talking for like 5 minutes.
Player 2: I know.
Player 1: I'm bored.
Player 2: Wanna go see what they're sayin'?
Player 1: Sure.
Remember, you're playing a game. The purpose of a game is to have fun. Being excluded from a conversation is not fun. Furthermore, being punished in-game is also not fun, and in many cases completely ineffective.
What I suggest you do is simply have a chat with your gaming group. Nothing formal, just a "Hey, I wanted to talk a bit about the way we work" thing at the beginning of your next game session, or when you're at the pub, or after rehersal for your local choir. Whenever. Just chat about trust, what you expect from them, what they expect from you, and what you can do to make the game more inclusive and fun for everyone involved.
Or maybe I'm an idealist?
--Jeff
Player 1: Hey...
Player 2: Yeah?
Player 1: DM and Player 3 have been talking for like 5 minutes.
Player 2: I know.
Player 1: I'm bored.
Player 2: Wanna go see what they're sayin'?
Player 1: Sure.
Remember, you're playing a game. The purpose of a game is to have fun. Being excluded from a conversation is not fun. Furthermore, being punished in-game is also not fun, and in many cases completely ineffective.
What I suggest you do is simply have a chat with your gaming group. Nothing formal, just a "Hey, I wanted to talk a bit about the way we work" thing at the beginning of your next game session, or when you're at the pub, or after rehersal for your local choir. Whenever. Just chat about trust, what you expect from them, what they expect from you, and what you can do to make the game more inclusive and fun for everyone involved.
Or maybe I'm an idealist?
--Jeff
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