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Am I the only one who doesn't like the arbitrary "boss monster" tag?

GreyICE

Banned
Banned
A great example! A nine-headed cryohydra gets more actions, it makes for a great solo because it can effectively fight by itself. There are plenty of monsters that behave this way, beholders and dragons and the like.

Goblin chiefs though, do not. That's just the way I see it.

The problem is that nine-headed cryohydras are on-level challenges, solo... for a 10th level party. Salamander nobles are meant to come as part of a pack. Yet they're both level 10, because they're both appropriate to throw into encounters for level 10s.

The salamander noble doesn't have the action economy or saves to break out of a situation that a party can put him in, so he can be handled as a solo encounter for a 5th level party. The cryohydra? Gets 9 conal breath attacks.

With luck, 2 or 3 party members might survive... the first round of combat.


P.S. I agree Goblin Chieftans belong in the 'elite' category, rather than the 'solo' category, but it looks like 5E is taking a step back and sticking both elites and solos into the 'boss' category. Why? I dunno. WotC.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
To use arbitrary numbers, let's say the XP for a 4th level creature is 4x the XP for a 1st level creature. In order for it to be an appropriate challenge, then having 4x the hitpoints is about right. Having the same attack bonus, in bounded accuracy, is about right, as is having the same defence. Having 4x damage is.. wrong.. because in fact the correct scaling is 4x the attacks with the same damage. Obviously that isn't going to swing (an extra attack every level is madness) so this scaling is wrong.
If you had the same number of monsters vs the same party using the same attacks, then a monster with 4x the hps is going to stick around 4x as long, and thus get 4x as many attacks, so that bit actually works fine. But, faced with a 'big bad,' the party just might pull out some bigger attacks or some action-denial, and then the quadruple monster folds.

It's a monster-design lesson that was learned during 4e, the original solos failing to be quite the threat they were meant to be for lack of action-preservation.


What scaling do we use? I've agonised over this and not found an answer because encounters with different numbers of actions are so hard to compare. If PCs and creatures grow in power linearly (a hit dice, a damage dice per level) then combats remain the same at every level.
It remains similar in length, sure, and comparable in encounter balance. If characters also gain more options and monsters gain more dramatic abilities, though, the feel of the combat will change. There can be more to 'scaling' than the literal, bigger-numbers, side.
If they gain hit die but do less damage then combats start to last longer. This might just about make up for the lack of actions for individual creatures. That's the only way I can see it working - damage output scales at, say, the square root of HP increase. Combats get longer as you go up in level.
So, not less damage, but lower increases to damage than to hps? I could see that working in some ways: it'll give PCs more staying power as they level, and make overleveled fights longer (and, thus, perhaps, more dramatic, if they don't become 'grinds').

But it still doesn't quite let monsters pull double-duty as solo threat vs a lower level party and mook vs a higher level one. The effect of automatic focus-fire, on a lone monster, by itself, changes things. Then there's the impact of action-denial.

Maybe there could be some sort of advantage given to the much higher-level side of a battle to both put back a little of the spice/drama that bounded accuracy might take away, and to speed up underleveled mook combats and add danger to overleveled boss encounters? Not Advantage in the 5e jargon sense, of course, blanket advantage/disadvantage could get pretty boring, but some other mechanic. For instance, in AD&D, a fighter got lots of extra attacks vs less-than-one-HD monsters - 1 per level, in fact - and AD&D dragons had a fear aura that only worked on creatures below a certain level/HD. Since 5e is all about poking around the attic for such ideas, why not do something like that? A Fighter could, say, trade in a CS die for an extra attack if all the opponents he attacks that round are below a certain max-hp threshold - there's already a cleave-like option under one Fighting-style, but this would be a blanket thing, like Parry. Casters, of course, can already sweep away hordes of lesser monsters with area attacks. A monster could gain extra 'secondary' attacks or have additional combat options that it can only use, if it's level/HD is sufficiently higher than the party's (or everyone in the party is below a certain max hp threshold, since that seems to be 5e's implementation).
 

ForeverSlayer

Banned
Banned
Or, I can save tons of time adding NPC levels to the goblin and have one statted out for me. One reason I gave up on 3.5e DM'ing was spending hours carefully crafting the NPC BBEG and getting one round killed.

In 4e, I can search for an appropriate leveled Elite foe and tweak for all of 5 seconds and have what I need.



So what you're saying is that all hill giants in the steading have the same stats and somehow, one of them (during the course of the PC assault) becomes the "boss"?

When I run games I don't always expect my encounters to last a certain number of rounds. Sure I may spend hours on a "boss" but if he gets taken out right away then I applaud the PC's for taking him out quickly. My "return" on my NPC investment is when I know that my player's are having fun.

I enjoy flipping through lots of classes and PrCs and coming up with all sorts of interesting characters. I guess where we differ is the fact that my "return" is different than yours but that's okay.

I don't want there to be one way to create encounters and NPC's. I want to be able to create them 3rd edition style and in 4th edition style for those who liked that style.
 

B.T.

First Post
I don't understand this at all... Why is it a problem to use the abstract and arbitrary system of elite and solo designation for powerful creatures, but fine to use the equally abstract and arbitrary level system for the same purpose? Neither system is any less arbitrary, so why is only one preferable?
I'd prefer to keep the arbitrary abstractness as minimal as possible.
Er, what? That's not a solution. That's a problem. You're basically saying that we shouldn't want a mighty dragon to be a reasonable challenge for a group of heroes on its own, despite the fact that it is one of the most iconic images of both fantasy and the game of Dungeons and Dragons.
Your use of that adverb causes my head to hurt. Poor form aside, it often indicates a logical leap that segues into a strawman, so let's stop right there.

"You're basically saying that--"

No, no, I'm not. I'm actually saying that a dragon should be a high-level creature that is a boss monster by virtue of its level. At a certain point, that dragon should stop being a boss monster and become a normal monster because that's how powerful the PCs are. (If this point is level 10, 15, 20, I don't know; that's up to the designers.)
Such a "solution" is completely unacceptable.
smiley-rolleyes007.gif


Obviously, I disagree.
Also, that "bad trope/bad sources" argument is just insulting. If D&D travels down that route it will lead only to an insular, bad game that can only appeal to aging, reactionary grognards. It is a path that leads directly to the game's demise, and I want no part of it. If the game wants to continue to survive, or better yet expand and find new fans, it needs to embrace all the inspiration it can and appeal to fans of all forms of entertainment and fantasy.
Call me a reactionary grognard, but I'm not interested in playing a D&D that is part Harry Potter, part Twilight, and part My Little Pony.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
[long hydra-based example]
And this is why solos require different design than 'they have a lot more levels than the PCs.'
Actually, this example is why the CR system sucks. And perhaps even an argument against D&D's historically steep number scaling.

slobster said:
Yet combining the two works, in a mechanical sense.
For some, maybe. For others, no.

Virtually anything can work in an rpg, what with differing styles and the potential for interpretations and houserules. The question is, what works the best for most people.

Your argument, at its core, seems to be more about subjective dislike of different monsters at the same level having wildly divergent capabilities in combat.
Not at all. As [MENTION=882]Chris_Nightwing[/MENTION] said, it's fine if some monsters naturally make better bosses than others because of what they are (or are otherwise "different"). It's not fine to approach design by saying "what combination of mechanics will provide a challenge to 4 5th level PCs?" and then slapping a description on the result. If a hydra has nine attacks, it's because it has nine heads, not because it balances out the action economy. Designing games backwards (i.e. deciding what a monster will do in a specific situation and then making rules that help it do that thing) is the issue here.

Stalker0 said:
A 1st level goblin with a staff of the magi could do way more damage than any other 1st level creature.

Level isn't the only way in Dnd to determine power, its simply the primary one.
I don't know how a goblin would actually use the staff, but belying that, yes, there are plenty of things that can situationally influence power. Level is the *primary* underlying determinant, but not the sole one.
 

nightwyrm

First Post
If you had the same number of monsters vs the same party using the same attacks, then a monster with 4x the hps is going to stick around 4x as long, and thus get 4x as many attacks, so that bit actually works fine.

Actually, it's quite different. Hitting 16 times in 4 round is much better than hitting 16 times over 16 rounds (assuming each hit deals the same damage).

As in chemistry, concentration matters.
 

slobster

Hero
Not at all. As [MENTION=882]Chris_Nightwing[/MENTION] said, it's fine if some monsters naturally make better bosses than others because of what they are (or are otherwise "different"). It's not fine to approach design by saying "what combination of mechanics will provide a challenge to 4 5th level PCs?" and then slapping a description on the result. If a hydra has nine attacks, it's because it has nine heads, not because it balances out the action economy. Designing games backwards (i.e. deciding what a monster will do in a specific situation and then making rules that help it do that thing) is the issue here.

Why is it not fine to do this? Why can't I decide I want a solo encounter, then decide that a hydra would make a neat encounter (for the reasons you mention), then use the solo tag to make an appropriate encounter? It doesn't bother me. In game terms it works out just fine.

You don't like it because you want your monster tools to simulate the game world. I'm ok with it because I'm fine with monster tools that deliver a tailor made gaming experience, so long as it pays heed to in-game fictional concerns (no 30th level solo-monster pixies . . . unless there's a durn good reason for it).

That is a subjective difference in priorities, not a disagreement about objectively determined truth.
 


D'karr

Adventurer
No, no, I'm not. I'm actually saying that a dragon should be a high-level creature that is a boss monster by virtue of its level. At a certain point, that dragon should stop being a boss monster and become a normal monster because that's how powerful the PCs are. (If this point is level 10, 15, 20, I don't know; that's up to the designers.)

So what this accomplishes is that monsters lose simply because they can't keep up with the number of actions in combat. A single Dragon should be a "boss monster" by virtue of his level, but if he only has one action per turn he is not much of a "boss monster." A party of 4/5 characters will have 4/5 actions against it for every time the monster gets to act.

Bounded Accuracy cannot account for that.

We have already seen this before and it made for very "boring" and "grindy" events.

I personally don't wish to go back to that type of situation. YMMV




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Ahnehnois

First Post
That is a subjective difference in priorities, not a disagreement about objectively determined truth.
I make no pretense to the contrary. There are very few objective truths on rpg message boards, and I do not routinely add IMHO YMMV to every post because I take it as assumed.

I am merely asserting my belief that a basically naturalistic philosophy (or simulation, if you prefer, though D&D is not strongly simulationist) is the right direction for the industry as a whole.
 

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