Ampersand: 2011 releases officially gutted

[Dice4Hire]

Yes, the real question is how to deliver game details in a way that is good for the customer, and good for WOTC's bottom line.

I like the book format, even with errata, and even though I have basically permanantly shelved my MMI and MMII for 4E as there have been such great monster changes.

DDI and such does not hold my interest at all, nor does looking at stuff from online sources. Lots of people put out 4E content. Kobold Quarterly is one. But for me they might as well not bother, harsh as that is.

But how to put stuff out? Taht is a good question, and I really have no answer.

 

[vagabundo]

DDI, 'eBooks', 'eReaders' and all that trash can go to Hell and die. Print your words on actual cellulose or **** off and take your 'products' with you.

Hey, I really dig the internet. I really, really dig Skype. Search engines and all that stuff are great. But Skype is not as good as being in person, Wikipedia is not as good as an actual scholarly treatment (in fact, there's no comparison since Wikipedia is often blatantly wrong), and serious information that is to be taken seriously is found in books. If it's not worth printing in an actual book, it's probably not worth reading.

lol Get back into the basement, old man. Who let you out?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Wikipedia is not as good as an actual scholarly treatment (in fact, there's no comparison since Wikipedia is often blatantly wrong)

The scholars disagree.

Though I agree with the endpoint of your argument. D&D doesn't need to chase the tail of the latest technological wonder that the press gets a gadget-boner about.

It's probably about time a large chunk of the rules did move online, though. What that means for piracy, accessibility, and the future of physical products is still being felt out, but I think the online stuff can be seen as an adjunct to the main business of selling things, rather than a replacement for it.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Machete don't rent TTRPGs.

 

[Scribble]

I wonder what Scribble thinks of this, he's typically a "look on the brightside" kind of person...

[MENTION=54810]renau1g[/MENTION]

Sorry- I've been at a week long company get together/conference (complete with an open bar every night) so I've been kind of out of it!

Overall- Meh I was looking forward to those books, and also like the new soft cover format, so that's annoying... But I also don't think it's quite as "sky is falling" as a lot of people seem to.

I don't particularly agree that there needs to be an army of monthly source books for a game to survive- in fact I think that tends to lead to the designers getting burned out more quickly, and the players getting tired of things more quickly.

I'd be happy, as I've said before, if they let Essentials mostly stand on its own, and started releasing other flavors of 4e in Essentials and Gamma World style... Changes to the game, that don't really pull it into the realm of a new edition, but change things enough that playing it really feels like a new experience. D&D for every taste so to speak.

Any expansion for these games could be through DDI, or the rare sourcebook, or expansion pack.

I enjoy change though. I think change breeds opportunity and a way to try different experiences- It excites me! Sure, sometimes change can be dangerous... But I think no change is even worse.

I don't really think, (despite edition changes) that the gaming "industry" as a whole has really changed much since the 80s- and this is a very bad thing. (I'll save these thoughts for another thread though.)

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think right now many of us are arguing different things.

I totally agree that the idea of sitting down with a D&D book and just reading it is a great thing and is something many of us wouldn't want to give up. But the point to remember here is what is in that book that you wish to do that with is what is important. A book of mainly fluff can support being printed and put on shelves. The Campaign Setting books, the Manual of the Planes, Open Grave etc. Because right now there is no place in the WotC online toolbox to put that information in, other than really condensing them and make them Dragon/Dungeon articles. But those books are way too big to be handle like that in this current point in time.

But the books whose primary purpose is game mechanics? Absolutely, those could be taken down from the shelves and moved online. Do any of you "sit down to read" your Adventurer's Vault? Or pick up your Player's Handbook and read the Powers sections of all eight classes? Now if you do, more power to you... but I have a feeling that you'd be in the minority. I would venture a guess that most people that subscribe to DDI and who want to look at the powers for a 23rd level Invoker will go straight to the Character Builder or Rules Compendium before ever picking up their hardcover PHII. Some of you might of course. Especially those of you who don't currently subscribe. But those of us who do, will usually go with the most efficient way possible, which is the online tools for game content.

And when you consider that the cost of buying a year's subscription to DDI is about the same as buying 3 hardcover D&D books a year off of Amazon (with their discounted prices), except that the subscription is all profit for WotC whereas they only make a small percentage of that from printing (what with the printer, the shipper, and the bookseller all getting their cut)... they will more than make up for the loss of the few people who only want to "own" things they buy. Obviously I don't know the actual numbers, but I would venture a guess that one year's subscription would make up for the loss of 3 hardcover book sales to that one person who refuses to come along the digital river.

So I completely understand why people are resistant to the idea of game books no longer being books... but from a cost to profit point of view it just makes too much sense not to continue in this path. Keep the base game books printed and on the shelves so that it remains in the periphery of people walking through Barnes & Noble or their local game shop, and you can still put the other fluff books on the shelves as well, as they are also cool to read and flip through. But move all the "extra" crunch stuff to DDI and the online tools where those of us who will actually use it... will actually use it. After all... it's not that copy of Martial Power 2 on the bookshelf that is going to inspire a person to play the game who hasn't yet. So having it there is kind of pointless based on the cost it took to get it there.

 

[the Jester]

But the books whose primary purpose is game mechanics? Absolutely, those could be taken down from the shelves and moved online. Do any of you "sit down to read" your Adventurer's Vault? Or pick up your Player's Handbook and read the Powers sections of all eight classes? Now if you do, more power to you... but I have a feeling that you'd be in the minority.

If I hadn't bought the PH3, no way in hell would I try to understand what an ardent or psion does based on a reading of DDI. It's basically not a friendly way to gain information- it's a pain in the ass trying to put the pieces together.

I think moving to an increasingly electronic form of distribution is a terrible mistake, because WotC doesn't seem to be able to handle their current electronic offerings. Why on earth would I have faith that moving more and more stuff to their least successful (in the sense of "easy and fun to access and use information") channel will improve anything?

Certainly, this isn't D&D's death knell, but it's looking like the death knell of many people's willingness to spend money on D&D.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So I completely understand why people are resistant to the idea of game books no longer being books... but from a cost to profit point of view it just makes too much sense not to continue in this path.

As one in the IP biz, I'm 100% sure that Digitization is the way to go...it's virtually inevitable and cost effective.

Where I disagree is whether most products- RPGs included- should be digital ONLY.

For a variety of reasons, I honestly feel that RPGs and similar products need to maintain physical existence in commercial spaces. PoD simply doesn't satisfy my concerns, including the shifting of costs from the provider (who can make physical products better for less money due to efficiencies of scale) to the consumer (who cannot).

 

[Scribble]

As one in the IP biz, I'm 100% sure that Digitization is the way to go...it's virtually inevitable and cost effective.

Where I disagree is whether most products- RPGs included- should be digital ONLY.

For a variety of reasons, I honestly feel that RPGs and similar products need to maintain physical existence in commercial spaces. PoD simply doesn't satisfy my concerns, including the shifting of costs from the provider (who can make physical products better for less money due to efficiencies of scale) to the consumer (who cannot).

Well, there's definitely a demand for physical RPG products... My question I guess overall is is that demand coming from new blood, or from the same old crew it's been coming from over the years? (A shrinking crew as people get older and loose interest, lack time to play, die off, etc...)

If 2, then my question is Would content delivered in new ways, along with new ways to experience D&D bring new blood into the game?

 

[The Halfling]

If I hadn't bought the PH3, no way in hell would I try to understand what an ardent or psion does based on a reading of DDI. It's basically not a friendly way to gain information- it's a pain in the ass trying to put the pieces together.

I think moving to an increasingly electronic form of distribution is a terrible mistake, because WotC doesn't seem to be able to handle their current electronic offerings. Why on earth would I have faith that moving more and more stuff to their least successful (in the sense of "easy and fun to access and use information") channel will improve anything?

Certainly, this isn't D&D's death knell, but it's looking like the death knell of many people's willingness to spend money on D&D.

but how is a class that is presented in a physical book and different than a full class build presented in a fashion like the Executioner assassin?

Each one of those classes could be broken out of the PHB and portrayed in DDi just as well, and all the fluff associated with the Psionic Power source could be detailed in a single article. All that changes is the medium of presentaion.

Now if you are speaking of the Compendium rather than just DDi in general, then I would agree than the Compendium is sparse on details and fluff, but a simple hyperlink contained in the entry to the relevant article/s would help in that regard.

I do understand though that an individual's comfort level plays a significant part in this. Quite a few people want to own what they purchase, be it a physical produce or electronic format. I do myself to some extent. I just see physical product, at least with regards to crunch, as a wasteful and inefficient format. I spent too many years, especially in the 3E era, lugging around a backpack full of books, just so I can reference 1 or 2 items from each. If the technology exists to allow me to carry my entire library of game books in a 1lb device, then I feel that technology should be taken advantage of.