Ampersand: 2011 releases officially gutted

[Korgoth]

Hmm, on the ebook vs physical book discussion, one argument I feel hasnt been made yet.

D&D (and other p&p rpg's) is this kinda arcane, kinda adventurous activity and hobby. A shelf full of books, pencils, funny dice, some mini's maybe.. these are important parts of this 'romanticised' experience.

Sure, I guess maybe I'm just getting older, not quite in the generation for whom internet & the digital everything has always been there.

I suppose the next wave of early adopters or once digital presence is more accepted, it's technologically & economically a better idea to go to digital delivery.
But I have to wonder if the 'kids' who'd ride the wave of techno advancement are really going for a style of game that is behind the times and kinda... sorry to say it.. obsolete.

Look at people playing guitar.. the materials & styles of the popular models have mostly remained stuck in the '50s. You can make a very advanced guitar using plexiglass instead of wood, digital enhancments instead of analogue electronics and whatnot.. and it's mostly rejected.. because it just isnt the same. With amplifiers, for all their 'obsoleteness' an old style vacuum tube amp is pretty much the most popular choice.

There are a lot of niche artists who make most of their money selling vinyl still, not digital.

imo, ttrpgs are a kinda of hobbyist thing mostly. It's something that sells & plays not only on it's own properties, but also it's nostalgia and romatic value. Taking away that value, and how much does it actually differ from any other type of entertainment product?

This is an excellent post.

Here's the thing about analog versus digital: some things survive the transition, and some things don't.

Model trains are a hobby. A very niche hobby, but a hobby nonetheless. They sell a lot of model train stuff at my local Hobby Lobby (I shop there mostly for stuff to use for my hobby of historical miniatures wargaming). Now, I could make model trains a digital experience. I could call it: Rail Modelz Revolution Digital Experience (or "Model Train Tycoon" or whatever). It would essentially be a computer program where you 'set up' and customize model train layouts. There could be game aspects where you try to do certain things with x amount of track or in x amount of time or whatever, and free play modes where you basically just set up the biggest, baddest model train domain that your heart desires. I could even make it a subscription based game, for no other reason than profit motive.

Here's the thing: no matter how much money and time you spend on RMRDE, there is one thing that you do not have and never will have... a model train.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

This is an excellent post.

Here's the thing about analog versus digital: some things survive the transition, and some things don't.

Model trains are a hobby. A very niche hobby, but a hobby nonetheless. They sell a lot of model train stuff at my local Hobby Lobby (I shop there mostly for stuff to use for my hobby of historical miniatures wargaming). Now, I could make model trains a digital experience. I could call it: Rail Modelz Revolution Digital Experience (or "Model Train Tycoon" or whatever). It would essentially be a computer program where you 'set up' and customize model train layouts. There could be game aspects where you try to do certain things with x amount of track or in x amount of time or whatever, and free play modes where you basically just set up the biggest, baddest model train domain that your heart desires. I could even make it a subscription based game, for no other reason than profit motive.

Here's the thing: no matter how much money and time you spend on RMRDE, there is one thing that you do not have and never will have... a model train.

Yeah, here's the thing. D&D is not model trains. Model trains are a craft hobby. I can get into model trains and be totally involved without interacting with anyone else. Like knitting, or painting, the physical objects are the point of the hobby. Now, in the past, I could have looked up what rolling stock was used on the New York, New Haven and Hartford, and seen pictures to help me scratch build and customize models for realism. Shifting my references to websites instead of my collection of railroad reference books doesn't change the core activity.

D&D is sitting down with people playing pretend, using character sheets and dice to resolve conflict. Moving the reference material to digital doesn't change the activity to digital. And we aren't discussing VTT or using computers to roll dice or act as character sheets.. This would be akin to designing a custom shell for a locomotive in a CAD program and printing it on a 3D printer.

 

[Primal]

I am sure WOTC will do something, and most likely at DDXP, as Gencon is just too far away.

But will I like it? That is the question. I want books with traditional 4E support. It can support Essentials, too, that is fine. I think it is possible to make a book that does both. Just like tempest fighter at-wills really don't work for a sword and board fighter, it can be done.

That I would like to see. But overall, I would like to see essentials 10 books and only 10.

Selfish, I suppose, but there it is.

I believe it too; it might be a completely digital business model which revolves around VTT and DDi, and including e-book publishing. Although I doubt it; I just can't believe they could pull it off on their own, given their track record so far. However, pulling those books off the market might indicate that they might be considering going all-digital -- especially in the light "You're going to see this material in another form"-type of comments. I just don't think enough gamers own, or would buy, an e-book reader (and I don't believe they would use PDF as the format). Instead, it might be digital components purchased online; digital power and fortune cards, digital minis and tiles for VTT, themes, etcetera. Maybe there would even be overlap with console/computer games, i.e. purchased fortune/power cards and themes could be imported and exported between the game and VTT, for example.

But will it still be 4E? The next announcement might also be about a new edition of D&D which probably wouldn't a new edition per se, at least according to WoTC. What I mean by this is that there would be no '5E', ever; I could even see them marketing it with slogans like "It's still Dungeons & Dragons" and "The game remains the same!". It wouldn't matter if the base mechanics changed; they pulled it off it with Essentials, too (and regardless of what other people think, it looks like a new and revised edition to me). Maybe there will be modular add-ons published as boxed sets (if they still go for printed material), or completely digital additions to the base system (as above). If they use boxed sets, there might be overlap with their boardgames; perhaps new classes, new power cards, new themes and so on.

As has been said before, they've throwing all kinds of stuff around to see what "sticks", and I'm very curious to see what WoTC will do next...

 

[Scribble]

WOTC can do the former if they must (and seem to be), but I see no sign they are doing the latter.

They do lots of stuff without showing any signs of it until it's almost upon us though.

As people say, D&D XP is coming up- my guess is we'll see something then.

If you think about it, the books they slashed really ARE ideas that seem like great uses of the mags.

They don't really add anything "new" so to speak... They just modify/enhance or tie together already existing ideas.

 

[SlyDoubt]

Honestly if they switch to a mostly digital VTT model that would be the end of the game. That's simply a realm that is much bigger than what WoTC can handle. It would be a losing battle from the start. D&D has its niche and that niche is not on computers. It's at tables with other people playing in person.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Honestly if they switch to a mostly digital VTT model that would be the end of the game. That's simply a realm that is much bigger than what WoTC can handle. It would be a losing battle from the start. D&D has its niche and that niche is not on computers. It's at tables with other people playing in person.

I don't see how their support of VTT would force people to use it though. It's not like they will send the RPG police to your house to ensure that you're using it in your home games or whatever. You could argue that they will promote its use, but they can't enforce a "mostly digital" use of the materials.

They could release the entire game as "digital content" but unless they actually went ahead and made 5E nothing but a video game, most folks would be happy to continue playing it as a tabletop game with pencils and dice, just like Gary intended.

 

[the Jester]

Plus, they've already stated that the content of those books will be dealt with in DDI. It's just that we don't know yet if it's additional content for DDI, or in place-of it.

Oh seriously, when has anything that was supposed to be "additional" content NOT replaced other stuff in DDI?

Both the preview material and the playtest material have morphed from "Hey, what a good idea!" to "Jesus, my sub fees are just paying to be advertised at now."

I wouldn't hold my breath here, frankly- and until the last few months I was a huge booster of DDI despite its flaws.

 

[the Jester]

Yeah, here's the thing. D&D is not model trains.

I think the point is, if all the rules content is behind a paywall, you can't play without online access. You no longer own the game, you're renting access to it.

That's not the model for me as a customer, nor do I feel that it's a good model for D&D. To me, D&D is a hobby you should be able to take in your backpack when you're camping in the middle of nowhere. D&D is a hobby where you should be able to peruse your books on the toilet. D&D is a hobby that encourages its players to spend hours and hours pouring through books at random, either looking for just the right spell or power or item or else just for the joy of it.

None of these things are encouraged by a digital-only ruleset, and I hope WotC gives up on the idea right quick (assuming that switching to a primarily-online model is their plan).

 

[SlyDoubt]

I don't see how their support of VTT would force people to use it though. It's not like they will send the RPG police to your house to ensure that you're using it in your home games or whatever. You could argue that they will promote its use, but they can't enforce a "mostly digital" use of the materials.

They could release the entire game as "digital content" but unless they actually went ahead and made 5E nothing but a video game, most folks would be happy to continue playing it as a tabletop game with pencils and dice, just like Gary intended.

Oh no I didn't mean it like that. I meant future content. It's always true that as long as you own the stuff no one can stop you from using it. I never said enforce and I didn't realize what I said had that tone.

What I mean is there's only a limited amount of money and time to go around. If that money/time is funneled into VTT and support for a digital only D&D experience the print form will need to be cut back. That direction would be a losing battle. I don't think there's anyone who would believe D&D could survive in a digital format. It's totally fine as a hybrid print/digital thing, but going full on digital would be a terrible idea. They'd lose a ton of players and most likely gain almost no new ones seeing as the digital landscape is already filled with RPGs of one kind of another.

If I want that I can play Neverwinter Nights. Of course that's tongue-in-cheek but I think you get the gist of what I mean. D&D is the big fish in its little pond. If D&D were to move to an all digital format based around VTT it would be a minnow in the ocean and I think the majority of its long time players and supporters would just stay playing 4e or whatever other older edition. WoTC needs to stop splitting their player base into little pieces.

Every new edition has this effect but with 4E we also got DDI which further splits the community. They simply can't afford to keep doing that. Essentials was recognition that they understand this problem and want to fix it. It provided access to the new style of rules, class builds that are more reminiscent of older editions of D&D and did it all in an affordable package.

Now we're told books that would transition older material to this updated format/style (and expand it in the direction laid out by Essentials) will be cut. There are hints it will appear on DDI. I was fine with how things were being handled early on. DDI provided a useful resource for people who wanted it, that's great. It also had new content in magazine format which is a great idea and really necessary to keep people engaged. Now I feel I'm being forced down that path though. Instead of DDI subscribers getting alternate options from those of us only buying books they'll be getting the updated takes on phb classes? That's a bit much for me to accept without being at least somewhat miffed.

 

[Ryujin]

Whatever the ultimate result might be I applaud them for learning from their mistakes in the CB debacle, and actually TELLING us how things were going.