An attempt to make the Mystic Theurge have a point

[DreamChaser]

I was looking around at the "Revision Spotlight" archive and it occured to me that the problem with the Mystic Theurge was not simply mechanical. It was actually that it was clearly a metagame PrC, designed to allow multiclass wizard/clerics to avoid much of the penalty for such a choice. No attempt at flavor was added to make the class make sense.

Below you can find my version.

Things I've changed:

1) Only 6 levels. A mystic theurge now tops out at 7 (wiz or cleric)+6 (mt) =13 caster levels and thus sacrifices 8th and 9th level spells. In addition, I added a penalty if their class levels are separated by more than 1 level.

2) No BAB increase. I though since they were gaining some pretty neat magical benefits, they should give something up.

3) Some abilities the play on the connection between the arcane and divine.

4) More prereqs that make the mystic theurge part of a game world as a whole and make them plan their joining more (as it stood any m/c cleric/wizard could join, seemingly by accident)


Let me know what you think. Feedback is appreciated.

DC

 

[DreamChaser]

here it is.

 

[the Jester]

Well, I for one am reserving judgment of the mystic theurge until I see all the changes in the spells. I think with the big buffs reduced in duration and things like that, it may well be fine as is.

Having looked over your version, I like it, though I think intertwining and mystic relics are a both powerful and (in the case of intertwining) limited. I think the only reason the mt works is the fact that it gives you nothing but spell advancement.

YMMV, of course.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Dreamchaser, interesting version. I may steal some of the ideas from it. I do see one problem, however - you don't address the very real issue that this class is underpowered early on.

My own take on the MT class is to allow casters to take it sooner, but their highest MT level cannot exceed twice their divine or arcane class level (whichever is LOWER). Thus a character could be clr1/wiz1/MT2, but not clr1/wiz2/MT10. This allows the power to scale better, IMHO. Also, if a character really wants 9th-level spells, he will have a max of 5th-level in the other class, e.g., clr3/wiz11/MT6.

 

[DreamChaser]

my take on this class is that it should never go to 9th level spells. they are gaining versatility in stead of power. the ability to lob fireballs and heal is not a small benefit. it should not be treated as one.

and there is no point IMO in a prc if all it does is grant +1 spell caster levels. that makes it a metagame prc.

DC

 

[Shallown]

I like Monte's Hallowed mage which is a Wizrd/Cleric cross. It basically requires third level arcane and divine casting then starts a Prc. with 4th spell list and gains that is a mix of both classes and they gain some abilities. True they lose some spell casting as far as they will be behind in casting some spell levels than a straight caster. They are retricted in what spells they can cast by their list. I have even gone so far as to change the list according to who they worship. It works pretty neatly I think.

Its in Divine might book I think

later

 

[Angcuru]

The Mystic Theurge as it is does require a lot of revision, and your idea seems pretty good. I revised the MT myself to be a base class instead of a PrC. Right now I'm at school, so I can't post the file up, but I'll tack it up when I get home. Hopefully, it may give you some ideas or you might want to use it for yourself.

 

[Angcuru]

Here's that variant I was talking about.

EDIT: Note to self, trying to edit an attachment results in a deletion.

 

[DreamChaser]

I don't like varient core classes that are little more than the combination of multiple core classes. They seem to defeat the point of multiclassing (and generally are more powerful than multiclassing). This class also gains the full benefit of turn undead and familiar but only gains up to level 8 or 9 casting in each class; the reverse fo the MT prestige class.

just my opinion, however.

DC

 

[Angcuru]

I don't like varient core classes that are little more than the combination of multiple core classes. They seem to defeat the point of multiclassing (and generally are more powerful than multiclassing). This class also gains the full benefit of turn undead and familiar but only gains up to level 8 or 9 casting in each class; the reverse fo the MT prestige class.

just my opinion, however.

And you make your point quite clearly.

However, with this I was aiming for something similar to the multiclass wizard/cleric back in 2nd edition. They gain power slower than both cleric and wizard, but are more diversified and are more one-size-fits-all when it comes to magic.

I realize that with 3rd edition as it stands, multiclassing penalties are a bit issue. I however, don't use multiclassing penalties until you get into the area of 4 or more core classes. I see classes as not defining characteristics of the character, but paths for them to progress in to define their character in terms of what they can do.

just my opinon, however.