An "Insightful" Question

5ekyu

Hero
Well, part of that assumes that "state a goal and approach" was intended as a hard rule-like process of play and not just good guideline for how to encourage good interactive RP. The fact that you've reimagined at least one skill - insight - to make it more active and less passive suggests that what you call "in line with the other skills" is a more ubiquitous problem. For me, it's a non-problem. It's only a problem if you are insisting in applying a validation filter on all player propositions that they must "state a goal and an approach" and that otherwise it is not a proper proposition. Attempting to control the processes of play to achieve a particular game experience is a very post-Forge Indy like approach to the game, but I'm not sure that it is a necessary one. It's more of a preferred style.



The danger is that you end resolving a non-trivial number of propositions by fiat. You've basically forced yourself to adopt a process of play were all knowledge is either known (100% chance of success) or unknown (0% chance of success). But this does not account for PC background or PC downtime. It's entirely consistent to setting for a character that spent 8 years in some sort of apprenticeship, and maybe a couple of years practicing a profession before starting play to have acquired a large but not comprehensive body of knowledge about the setting that the player themselves simply doesn't have. One thing you might have gathered that I don't like is a situation where I'm effectively choosing before or during the session how to resolve doubtful propositions based on my meta-game knowledge of the PC's stats. For instance, I objected to passive perception versus static DC's, because - since I know the Pc's passive perception score - then whenever I place a challenge I'm in the position of deciding how I want the challenge to play out. And for me, knowledge is exactly the same issue. Sure, there is a certain amount of that going on, since I could always set the DC to be trivial (DC 5) or ridiculous (DC 45), but at least in that case what I'm supposed to be basing my decision on is whether it is knowledge 'known to practically everyone' or 'known to the gods, and maybe not all of them' and I can make that sort of estimation with confidence.

For example, when the party encounters a monster for the first time, it's often a homebrew monster, but a character with the right knowledge still might recognize the monster and know some facts about it. I would also allow a PC to go to the library (approach) to discover something about a monster (goal) using the same skill, but I don't automatically assume that in researching vampires last month the player didn't skim through some facts about mummies that weren't at the time relevant but which comes to mind now, or that their mentor during their apprenticeship didn't force them to write a 5 page essay on each of the common sorts of corporeal undead.

And the same general approach applies to all sorts of knowledge.



My general approach to this is whether the information could have ended up in a book or other body of common lore. So you can't but through play learn where a murder hid a murder weapon in an unsolved case, but pretty much anything that is known to someone and has historical or scientific significance could be known to you. Knowledge after all is testing your mastery of a body of lore.



I don't think they problem is so much finding 'good applications'. The problem is that you can no longer find immediate applications. And by removing their immediate utility and limiting them only to matters of research and learning, you are pretty much making them useless except in very slow deliberate investigative campaigns that are quite different from the usual 'quick the doors down, fight the monsters, and take their stuff' assumptions of play that the D&D rules have traditionally primarily supported. As such, you are basically eliminating the worth of 'the adventuring scholar' which might otherwise be a valuable archetype, and relegating knowledge skills to the sort of NPC sages described in 1e AD&D.



I never tell the players that they believe an NPC either. I tell the player that they are confident that that an NPC believes what they are saying, or doesn't believe what they are saying, or generally what emotion that the NPC is feeling and may be trying to describe, or broadly what motive seems to lie behind the NPC's actions. Rarely, an exceptionally unperceptive character may be deemed to have fumbled that their check and I tell them they are confident of something that is false, but that's not really a required process of play.



That is of interest to me too, but such a scene would be deemed at least as important as combat and would never be resolved with a single roll based off a single agenda and approach. That scene would be RPed out, with different rhetorical feints and parries and probably a raft of rolls contested or passive skills across a wide range of different proficiencies. And if the goal was 'expose them to some NPC' - convince the king his councilor is a scoundrel - then that might be determined ultimately by something cumulative to all the action. Just as an important combat might take an hour to resolve, so to we might spend an hour on the role-play of that scene, with dialogue ideally that could be turned into a screen play or novel of the scene that was so played out.



Yes, but ultimately that is a test of NPC vs. NPC that depends on the relationship between those NPCs and their perceptiveness is only influenced by the behavior and success of the PC. So a PC might could induce a reaction test between two NPCs at some modifier on the roll, or the PC get an NPC to confess to an NPC, but just because you've made a very convincing argument it doesn't force the NPC to recognize how convincing it was. Indeed, multiple NPCs hearing the same argument might behave differently. One NPC implicitly trusts their spouse regardless of what arguments you bring forward. Another NPC is a fool and believes the spouse for flimsy and illogical reasons. And a third might realize you've presented really damning evidence, while a fourth might believe that though the evidence isn't compelling, they recognize the subtle cues that the spouse is actually lying.



Define 'real' and we may be on the same page. I'm aware of the Forge meaning as well, but I won't discuss it because I can get myself in trouble when I discuss public figures in the gaming community critically. Suffice to say that your default, problematic though it is, is probably a more coherent definition than the Forge one. I think the Forge conversations were extremely valuable for the seriousness with which they examined game design as an intellectual exercise, but I think that much of what came out of GNS as something explored in and of itself is pretty worthless. By "simulationist" I mean really a game that treats exploration of setting as one of its principle aesthetics of play, and as such attempts to be internally consistent and tends to want to treat only the setting information as relevant to the adjudication of fortune.

Now, we could really digress here but one of the big ways that GNS goes wrong is it assumes that the three aesthetics of play they identified are mutually exclusive and so systems need to be designed to deliver that one aesthetic of play. However, I would argue that any game that attempts to do that very rapidly ceases to be an RPG (for which, I'd have to define an RPG). But, for example a purely simulationist game would not have players, and thus not have player characters, but only designers and observers. It would in fact be a model (or simulation) and not an RPG, because by the definition I provided a game that only and 100% was designed to accommodate that aesthetic wouldn't allow the player to influence the action because by the definition the player is outside of the in-game world and thus not a part of the adjudication of fortune.



I use different procedures of play to deal with those problems. But from a purely simulationist perspective there is nothing to "derail" and the game can't "grind to a halt". The story can grind to a halt and play can become uncompelling, slow paced, and uninteresting but properly simulation doesn't care about that. To solve those problems, I don't alter the rules, but alter the refereeing - the conditions of the model or fiction as it were. The game engine remains simulationist but the story teller alters the fiction to deal with non-procedural problems like weak drama, slow pacing, etc.

RE the bold - something like this is why i introduced in my campaign the "expanded trio task"
Any task/ability check that requires more than one round of activity is resolved as a trio-task - a race to three successes vs three fails.
Each success not only counts towards the objective of 3 but gives some tangible useful gain (often info or leads) and each failure counts towards total fails and "exhausts" that line - further attempts have disadvantage unless circumstances or approach is changed dramatically (spend extra resources, go to the temple following the lead for info there, bribe folks on the street for comings and goings, etc.) that leads frequently to different skills/expertise and even different people doing different legs of the work unless they just win-out.

I even use it for crafting and the like with each roll taking up 1/4 the normal total time - if they win-out they get done quicker and under budget. if they barely make it, they took longer and over budget.

i have found it pretty flexible and gives my players a consistent "mechanical process" for non-combat "extended challenges".
 

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Celebrim

Legend
RE the bold - something like this is why i introduced in my campaign the "expanded trio task"
Any task/ability check that requires more than one round of activity is resolved as a trio-task - a race to three successes vs three fails.
Each success not only counts towards the objective of 3 but gives some tangible useful gain (often info or leads) and each failure counts towards total fails and "exhausts" that line - further attempts have disadvantage unless circumstances or approach is changed dramatically (spend extra resources, go to the temple following the lead for info there, bribe folks on the street for comings and goings, etc.) that leads frequently to different skills/expertise and even different people doing different legs of the work unless they just win-out.

I even use it for crafting and the like with each roll taking up 1/4 the normal total time - if they win-out they get done quicker and under budget. if they barely make it, they took longer and over budget.

i have found it pretty flexible and gives my players a consistent "mechanical process" for non-combat "extended challenges".

Sounds extremely 'gamist' to me. Why three? What is 'round' in game universe? What does each roll represent in the game universe?

You can therefore probably imagine at this point how well I receive that as a process of resolution. Yes, it solves a problem but only from a particular point of view as to what the problem is.
 

5ekyu

Hero
Sounds extremely 'gamist' to me. Why three? What is 'round' in game universe? What does each roll represent in the game universe?

You can therefore probably imagine at this point how well I receive that as a process of resolution. Yes, it solves a problem but only from a particular point of view as to what the problem is.

Well, ok, i was only giving the mechanical side of the process so maybe that was a bit of the conbfusion if there really was confusion.

a round is a defined game term and covers basically the period of time from one characters turn to their next. used as short hand - i used it to define a non-immediate task.

Each roll is - like all skill check rolls - the resolution of a set of actions towards a task/objective.

One roll might represent a craftsman spending 2 days on an art piece that was expected to take a week.
One roll might represent a character doing research at the library on the ruins they spotted on the way into town. Another subsequent roll might be that character or another asking questions of the local priest because we spotted a temple in the ruins or because the library info mentioned temples.

etc etc etc.

the goal of the process is *for uncertain outcome tasks that fit the bill* to enable more than one die more than one proficiency more than one character resolutions that each spawn other options/opportunities for RP and gameplay during the resolution itself.

In play it has led to the combo of gameplay and roleplay working together much better than and producing more interesting results than a single die roll resolution for these tasks/checks had (and than gm fiat auto-deliver had.)

may not be for all.

but it has worked for us.

Why three? As in why not five or seven or varying by task?

1 - matches up well with the existing death save mechanic they are already familiar with. i like consistency.
2 - i see no benefit to making each task have different custom numbers of resolution checks - the race to three yields 3-5 checks - enough to get resolution simple enough and to allow a good numbers of swerves and change-ups and leave the crits as meaningful.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Well, ok, i was only giving the mechanical side of the process so maybe that was a bit of the conbfusion if there really was confusion.

There wasn't so much confusion as I was pointing out how at odds this approach was to my stated aesthetics of play, namely that all adjudication of fortune should be based wholly or primarily on factors that occur in the setting (properly in the fictional positioning). As such, I felt if you'd been paying attention you'd know that I wasn't interested in that as an approach. But your answer shows that there is still a huge disconnect with what I'm even talking about:

a round is a defined game term and covers basically the period of time from one characters turn to their next

Whereas, I would have answered a round is about six seconds.

Each roll is - like all skill check rolls - the resolution of a set of actions towards a task/objective.

Whereas, I would have answered that each roll resolves some doubtful proposition about how a character interacts with the setting.

the goal of the process is *for uncertain outcome tasks that fit the bill* to enable more than one die more than one proficiency more than one character resolutions that each spawn other options/opportunities for RP and gameplay during the resolution itself.

Whereas, I would have said the goal of the process is to resolve the action that logically occurs within the setting given the choices being made by the players in a way that had strong verisimilitude to the setting. As such, what the roll is resolving is always a predicate to the mechanical resolution, and I can never know how many rolls that might take. It would be like saying that before the combat started, you could assign a number of rolls that would be required to resolve it. But combat doesn't work like that. The number of rolls required to resolve combat is not knowable until it is resolved, nor is it knowable at the beginning of the process what rolls will be called for. This is because each proposition and fortune test changes the fictional positioning in unpredictable ways, which changes the propositions and fortune tests available in the next cycle of the loop.

In play it has led to the combo of gameplay and roleplay working together much better than and producing more interesting results than a single die roll resolution for these tasks/checks had (and than gm fiat auto-deliver had.)

Great. But that's never a problem I had to fix in any version of the game I've played.

Why three? As in why not five or seven or varying by task?

Well, yes, exactly.

1 - matches up well with the existing death save mechanic they are already familiar with. i like consistency.
2 - i see no benefit to making each task have different custom numbers of resolution checks - the race to three yields 3-5 checks - enough to get resolution simple enough and to allow a good numbers of swerves and change-ups and leave the crits as meaningful.

Both answers indicate you don't understand the thrust of my question.
 

5ekyu

Hero
There wasn't so much confusion as I was pointing out how at odds this approach was to my stated aesthetics of play, namely that all adjudication of fortune should be based wholly or primarily on factors that occur in the setting (properly in the fictional positioning). As such, I felt if you'd been paying attention you'd know that I wasn't interested in that as an approach. But your answer shows that there is still a huge disconnect with what I'm even talking about:



Whereas, I would have answered a round is about six seconds.



Whereas, I would have answered that each roll resolves some doubtful proposition about how a character interacts with the setting.



Whereas, I would have said the goal of the process is to resolve the action that logically occurs within the setting given the choices being made by the players in a way that had strong verisimilitude to the setting. As such, what the roll is resolving is always a predicate to the mechanical resolution, and I can never know how many rolls that might take. It would be like saying that before the combat started, you could assign a number of rolls that would be required to resolve it. But combat doesn't work like that. The number of rolls required to resolve combat is not knowable until it is resolved, nor is it knowable at the beginning of the process what rolls will be called for. This is because each proposition and fortune test changes the fictional positioning in unpredictable ways, which changes the propositions and fortune tests available in the next cycle of the loop.



Great. But that's never a problem I had to fix in any version of the game I've played.



Well, yes, exactly.



Both answers indicate you don't understand the thrust of my question.
Not understanding the question and answering based on different values and preferences i will suggest are different things.

I answrred your questions based on the "why" i do them, the values i chose to prioritize. I told you wny i chose 3 and you come back with my not understanding your question about why i chose 3.

The fact that you dont share my preferences or conclusions is not an indication of not understanding your question.

Not everyone who disagrees is lacking u,derstanding, sometimes it is just different preferences.

Good day.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
I found the original post to be a bit confusing, so I am not sure I'm answering the actual question here...

I think there can be problems depending on what kind of rolling procedure the DM chooses to use, so choose wisely :)

In the scenario when an NPC is talking (possibly lying), the DM usually makes a Deception roll in secret, or no roll at all if there is no lie.

Then there is a first choice: the DM may decide to give the PC a chance at spotting the lie only if the player declares so, or she may decide to give that chance anyway, just like you often get a Perception roll to notice something even without asking. Whatever the choice here I don't think it affects the problem much.

On the other hand, when an Insight check is rolled, the DM can choose to roll herself (hidden) or have the player roll (in the open). Quite obviously, if you want to make sure the player won't metagame after seeing the check result, then just do not let the player roll in the open, but have the DM make the check instead and hide the results.

At the same time however, I don't think you have to include the chance of a critical failure in every roll, which in this case would be to completely misunderstand the NPC's intentions. So another valid option, is to let the player roll in the open, but on a failure have the result be simply "you have no idea".

The problem exists only if you want to both have the PC roll in the open and have an opposite reading on a very low roll.


Passive insight is also a potential stumbling block here. Does it provide a baseline below which a player cannot fail when making an active check?

Mmm... I don't think passive checks are such problem when used in a contest. As long as at least one of the two parties is actually rolling, there is no 'baseline' of automatic success/failure (well, at least unless the bonus difference between the two is huge). I think the problem you are referring to happens when passive checks are used against a static DC.
 


Ristamar

Adventurer
This (sadly no longer appears to be updating) blog post provides a solution that combines conditional dice substitution with in-game efforts to deal with the similar meta-game problem of seeing the dice result while making perception checks: http://ludusludorum.com/2016/03/18/cryptochecks/ .

Good blog. I used to check it regularly when they were still adding content. In regard to the advice in that particular entry, I find it easier to use passive scores if the DM is going to potentially roll in secret every time.

I do like the piece on Intelligence checks, though I'd definitely trim and simplify the result table: http://ludusludorum.com/2014/12/27/smarter-intelligence-checks/
 
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