An Open Letter to Fantasy Flight and Cubicle 7 -- Cut the "Foreplay" and Give Us the Good Stuff

[Remus Lupin]

I remain mystified at TrippyHippy's continual and blatant hostility and misrepresentation of the perspectives of others on this list, to the point where I really think it would be fair to say that he's lying about the opinions being offered by others.

Nobody, certainly not me, and certainly not Crothian, has suggested that FFG is being dishonest or misrepresenting their product. What we've said, repeatedly, but apparently not at a frequency that TrippyHippy is capable of hearing, is that we are disappointed that the product has been designed and marketed in such a way that a) we cannot play that game we would prefer to play out of the box, and b) we are being asked to invest in at least one, and possibly two additional products in order to get a relatively complete package to play the game we would like.

I think FFG is a very good company. And I'm sure that Edge of the Empire is fine game for people who want that kind of game -- are you hearing this TrippyHippy???? -- My argument is that it doesn't represent Star Wars in a way that I find conducive to the kind of stories I want to tell and the kind of game I want to play. This is not because I'm a power gaming munchkin who wants to wring every last ounce of cheese from my characters (anyone who's played with me can testify to that). It is because I have a particular vision of what makes Star Wars special and unique. I also get that it's not what's special and unique about it for everyone (though I note that even the article on Force Sensitivity that was linked to earlier referred to the Force as "iconic").

Again, the scorn and condescension totally mystify me, and I can only conclude that it comes from having played some very bad sessions with power gaming munchkin Jedi. That's a shame. But seriously, dial back the snark and actually try to listen to what's being said. One thing I can't stand is having someone state my position in a way that bears absolutely no resemblance to what my position actually is. Kindly knock it off.

 

[billd91]

Players should be able to play full Jedi to the equivalent IV at the least. As has been mentioned not all the Jedi were killed or hunted down before IV so that also leaves room for that possibility. It should be left up to the game group to decide if Jedi are in or out.

I thought the commonly held assumption was that all of the Jedi were hunted down and dead... Except for Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Tarkin and Vader sure seemed to think so. Granted, everyone seems to interfere with that and that's reasonably fair for an RPG.

But I like what FFG is doing here. They've planted the new game squarely in original trilogy territory, putting the game right at Luke and Han's doorstep. And that's got a lot of good gaming opportunity. If you want Jedi, go play a different game or wait if you like the new game's mechanics. There's no point stewing about it or implying that FFG is into an extended money grab by withholding Jedi, just buy it then.

 

[Scars Unseen]

Here is the reason that I find it difficult to take the Jedi Now! argument seriously. Note that I do not believe this viewpoint to be held by the majority even among those complaining, nor am I pointing at anyone specific in this particular thread. It is, however, a viewpoint that has come up frequently on the official forum and the Order 66 Podcast forum.

FFG is making a game with the Jedi in it. They have said(in the video I posted previously in this thread) that they are splitting the releases into three games focusing on different aspects of the Star Wars universe so that they can give each of these major aspects an full in depth treatment that they just couldn't accomplish in a single all encompassing book. FFG is going for a high quality genre emulation rather than a tactical fantasy RPG with Star Wars curtains hanging up. I'm sure some people prefer a tactical game to a narrative one, but there it is. Regardless, the Jedi are coming. The product is planned and scheduled.

To know this... to know that FFG has the product you want planned, to know that they are working to make the best product they can, and then to demand that they give it to you right now is childish in the extreme. It is saying that you do not care a whit about the quality of a product as long as you can get your shinies earlier. If you've tried the game and dislike it, then complain away; you've the right. If you are simply wishing that their plans had been different, well I guess that's fair. But to actually demand that FFG disrupt their carefully thought out plans - and if EotE is anything to go by, their plans are going to result in something special indeed - just so you can have a watered down experience that would likely be no better than the various homebrew Jedi rules people have already come up with? That I cannot support, as it is a line of thinking that would sacrifice long term quality for short term gratification.

 

[TrippyHippy]

I remain mystified at TrippyHippy's continual and blatant hostility and misrepresentation of the perspectives of others on this list, to the point where I really think it would be fair to say that he's lying about the opinions being offered by others.

I't's all entirely about things said on this forum which people can read for themselves, if they want to check out what people have said.

Nobody, certainly not me, and certainly not Crothian, has suggested that FFG is being dishonest or misrepresenting their product. What we've said, repeatedly, but apparently not at a frequency that TrippyHippy is capable of hearing, is that we are disappointed that the product has been designed and marketed in such a way that a) we cannot play that game we would prefer to play out of the box, and b) we are being asked to invest in at least one, and possibly two additional products in order to get a relatively complete package to play the game we would like.

It's insinuated in what you say. You aren't being asked to invest in anything - the product is sold as exactly the product it is, and the plan they are implementing is clearly explained in any preview or promotion they have done. If you like what they have to offer then buy it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But it isn't a valid complaint that the product doesn't meet the demands of gamers who don't appreciate what they are actually trying to do with the line despite it being explained repeatedly in plain language.

I think FFG is a very good company. And I'm sure that Edge of the Empire is fine game for people who want that kind of game -- are you hearing this TrippyHippy???? -- My argument is that it doesn't represent Star Wars in a way that I find conducive to the kind of stories I want to tell and the kind of game I want to play. This is not because I'm a power gaming munchkin who wants to wring every last ounce of cheese from my characters (anyone who's played with me can testify to that). It is because I have a particular vision of what makes Star Wars special and unique. I also get that it's not what's special and unique about it for everyone (though I note that even the article on Force Sensitivity that was linked to earlier referred to the Force as "iconic").

The point is that the Force is represented in the game in exactly they way it is in the original movies, and the setting it is emulating. It is not being unfaithful to canon - people who are demanding to play fully fledged Jedi are. Your vision of the game is not in line with the setting they are faithfully emulating. To say "you can't play Jedi" in EotE is not a fair reflection of the game's intent or what can actually be played out of the box. You can play Jedi - it's just to reach that status it takes patience and time to reach that status - which again, is entirely true to the setting. It's not a question of gamer's making their own choices how they want to play the game - it's about breaking the integrity of the setting, and breaking what The Force is meant to represent.

Again, the scorn and condescension totally mystify me, and I can only conclude that it comes from having played some very bad sessions with power gaming munchkin Jedi. That's a shame. But seriously, dial back the snark and actually try to listen to what's being said. One thing I can't stand is having someone state my position in a way that bears absolutely no resemblance to what my position actually is. Kindly knock it off.

It takes two to tango. You review your comments and I'll review mine - then we'll get back to each other. In the case of Crothian, I haven't read anything yet that hasn't been a negative and unfair representation of the game on this thread -so I guess I'll have to give him longer before I respond.

 

[Crothian]

I thought the commonly held assumption was that all of the Jedi were hunted down and dead... Except for Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Tarkin and Vader sure seemed to think so. Granted, everyone seems to interfere with that and that's reasonably fair for an RPG.

In EotE it says that a vast majority were hunted down but if any survive they are hiding in the furthest edges of the galaxy. The game itself sets up so there can be Jedi and says they would be in the very area the game is set is set in. They also embrace the expanded universe in the book and that is were you see other Jedi during this time.

 

[Remus Lupin]

I defy you to point to anything that I've said that suggests anything other than that people who do not want to play with Jedi in their game should not be required to do so, and that those who want the option to have Jedi should have the option to do so. I'll say again: You've utterly misrepresented, to the point of lying, my position throughout every comment I've made on this thread. Nothing I've said can even be remotely construed to suggest, nor to "insinuate" what you've been imputing to me, so I ask you again to either deal with my arguments on the terms on which I'm making them or to make a different argument.

It's ridiculous to say that I"m not being marketed to with this game: It's a Star Wars Role Playing Game. As a Star Wars Role Playing Gamer, I am the market for this product. The problem is that it's being marketed poorly to me, though I will acknowledge that it seems to be being marketed well to you. That's fine, but if the question is asked (and I think this is really the point of the original post) "what do you want in your Star Wars Role Playing experience, then I'm going to answer, among other things, "Jedi." Now, it may be the Edge of the Empire accomplishes what I want in a sufficient way, but as its been described so far, I am dubious. And once more, it's not because I'm interested in power gaming, it's because I'm interested in playing particular kind of mystique and a particular character concept.

If the only thing we had to go on to describe the events surrounding Episode IV were episode IV itself, then maybe you'd have a case, but there's a lot of material from the expanded universe, which has been canon in every Star Wars Role Playing Game up to this point, which gives material to allow for the presence of Jedi other than Obi Wan and Yoda. I'll say this again so that it's CRYSTAL CLEAR: If you don't like that and don't want it in your game, I fully support you not having it. I want that option to be there. This is my case in sum, and I still don't see you offering a shred of good reason as to why it's invalid for me to want that.

 

[Morrus]

Knock off the personal argument, please, you two. It's the Internet - even if you manage to win an argument on the Internet, you still lose. I suggest you both refrain from replying to each other and let folks get back to talking about Star Wars. Thanks!

 

[TrippyHippy]

If the only thing we had to go on to describe the events surrounding Episode IV were episode IV itself, then maybe you'd have a case, but there's a lot of material from the expanded universe, which has been canon in every Star Wars Role Playing Game up to this point, which gives material to allow for the presence of Jedi other than Obi Wan and Yoda. I'll say this again so that it's CRYSTAL CLEAR: If you don't like that and don't want it in your game, I fully support you not having it. I want that option to be there. This is my case in sum, and I still don't see you offering a shred of good reason as to why it's invalid for me to want that.

Actually, I can quote from the movie dialogue, literature, radio shows and indeed other Games (WEG) that state quite clearly that the Empire and Darth Vader drove the Jedi to the point of extinction and that ordinary folk began to doubt even the existance of the Force. I can point to it actually being the fundamental theme of the original Star Wars how Jedi returned to the Galaxy by the events surrounding Luke Skywalkers development, bringing 'A New Hope'. This is what the game supports - and allows you to play force sensitive characters either as potentials or hidden exiles. It's a non argument to state you 'support' my not wanting Jedi in the game. It's not my argument - I want an authentic Star Wars experience where Jedi are rare and mysterious, and who's training is slow, arduous and requiring of the 'deepest personal committment'.

Moderators note: I wrote this reply before I read your warning. I edited it down to ensure it was only discussing the Star Wars themes and canon. I'll refrain from answering for a bit till it calms down now.

 

[Scars Unseen]

It's ridiculous to say that I"m not being marketed to with this game: It's a Star Wars Role Playing Game. As a Star Wars Role Playing Gamer, I am the market for this product. The problem is that it's being marketed poorly to me, though I will acknowledge that it seems to be being marketed well to you. That's fine, but if the question is asked (and I think this is really the point of the original post) "what do you want in your Star Wars Role Playing experience, then I'm going to answer, among other things, "Jedi." Now, it may be the Edge of the Empire accomplishes what I want in a sufficient way, but as its been described so far, I am dubious. And once more, it's not because I'm interested in power gaming, it's because I'm interested in playing particular kind of mystique and a particular character concept.

If the only thing we had to go on to describe the events surrounding Episode IV were episode IV itself, then maybe you'd have a case, but there's a lot of material from the expanded universe, which has been canon in every Star Wars Role Playing Game up to this point, which gives material to allow for the presence of Jedi other than Obi Wan and Yoda. I'll say this again so that it's CRYSTAL CLEAR: If you don't like that and don't want it in your game, I fully support you not having it. I want that option to be there. This is my case in sum, and I still don't see you offering a shred of good reason as to why it's invalid for me to want that.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I thought I would point out that you are getting full blown Jedi. Just not in EotE. I've said it before in this thread, but I'm mostly interested in the Galactic Civil War aspect of Star Wars, so I'm not getting my favorite part of the saga yet either. Heck, at least you get the Force Exile, which can passably emulate anything done in the OT by the good guys anyway. I don't even get to see an X-Wing until next year. But I am content to wait because I know that I'll get a better game for the waiting. In the mean time EotE is really good at what it does.

As for the EU, I don't think that the fact some EU is represented means that all EU must be. I swear that I'll walk away from any table where someone tries to drag a Star Destroyer down from orbit. In any case, the rules for the force in EotE fit the overall theme of EotE. Prequel style jedi would not. If fringer style scum and villainy role play isn't your bag, then you are not the market for this product, as EotE is a fringer style scum and villainy role playing game. AoR will be a Rebels vs Empire role playing game, and FaD will be a Jedi-focused role playing game. Although the games will be compatible, there is nothing saying that you must buy all three in order to enjoy the one you want. Would FFG prefer that you buy all three? Sure, but apparently they are comfortable enough with the possibility that you might not that they are willing to spread out the releases so that they can make the game they want.

 

[Crothian]

. In the case of Crothian, I haven't read anything yet that hasn't been a negative and unfair representation of the game on this thread -so I guess I'll have to give him longer before I respond.

Nothing I've said has been unfair (I'm not sure fairness applies to opinions) but it has been negative. The thread is a negative thread started with one gamers complaints. In other threads on other boards and with conversations with friends I've said some great things about the game. This is not a thread about what is great and not so great about EotE, it is a thread about very specific complaints about two games and I purposefully stayed on topic as best I could.

Edit: To be fair there are also other complaints and concerns I have about the book that I haven't said here for the same reasons.