D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[FrogReaver]

TOS weakens your argument, because any fule kno it was progressive as heck for the time

Fascinating - So being progressive for it's time is enough.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think there's some muddled thinking here Snarf, that I'm slightly surprised to see from you!

No, it was not muddled; it's a simple examination of how motivated reasoning leads to outcomes. Look, for example, at how you immediately went into a long explanation as to how different examples were "better" or "worse."

I am just going to note that there is something truly bizarre with allowing other people to have the authority to be able to remove (ban) works, and that you have arrogated to yourself the authority to determine what is, and isn't, appropriate (so, HP is cool because he has been reclaimed, and Star Trek is cool because it was progressive for its time, and so on).

Art, speech, and so on never needs protecting when we like it. I feel like that's been said before. There is a lot of literature, film, art, and speech that I think is completely inappropriate, but I am not the judge of what is and isn't allowed. And I don't want you, or Mr. Kwan, or the posters on this forum to be the judges of that either.

 

[Aldarc]

Well, if one were to believe A.A. Milne: doing nothing often leads to the very best of something.

Given the context in which it was said, I’m skeptical that Pooh’s quote really applies here.

 

[Immeril]

Given the context in which it was said, I’m skeptical that Pooh’s quote really applies here.

To be honest, it doesn't. I watched Christopher Robin yesterday, and the quote's still stuck in my head.

 

[dave2008]

Argument 1
Why?
Because it is offensive.
To who?
A monetizing youtuber and some Asians
So not all Asians?
No, but they have been brought up to grin and bear it.
So their opinions on this matter are false or disinegenous?

Argument 2
Why?
Because it is offensive.
To who?
A monetizing youtuber and some Asians
So not all Asians?
Yes, but does it matter. It is deemed offensive and D&D needs to be inclusive.
Ok. How many people must be offended before something requires removal or ammendments?

EDIT:
Argument 3
Why?
Because it is cultural appropriation -a commercial power dymanic.
You do realise that the entire population of China ALONE far exceeds the sum of the populations of Europe, USA, Canada and Australia and that China is viewed as an economic powerhouse.

Question, would these be appropriate arguments if you changed "Asian" to: "Mexican" or "African" or "Samoan" or "Gay" any other ethnicity / cultural identity. I personally don't think so.

Your argument itself construes Asians as "other," and therefore it seems to me that perhaps* you don't have the ability to see "with eyes unclouded by hate." (If I may quote one of my favorite Studio Ghibli lines)

*hard to tell on the internet - such a terrible medium for determining a person's true thoughts

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

TOS weakens your argument, because any fule kno it was progressive as heck for the time
...

I also can't help but notice all your examples are from the 1960s and earlier, whereas OA is from the mid 1980s.

I realize that this is orthogonal to my point (no one should be the self-appointed arbiter of what other people get to read), but this is so painfully obvious.

Pemerton, among others, has done a lot of work explaining why OA is not racist from the perspective of the 1980s. But let's examine it in comparison the typical '80s view of Asian stereotypes?

Sixteen Candles- "Long Duk Dong"- I can't even.

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom- um, okay?

Big Trouble in Little China- Not as bad as Indy!

Karate Kid, Gremlins, etc- So maybe Asians are all just wise, right?

The Killing Fields- Asian story, white hero.

Flash Gordon- that was a 1980 film. You remember more than the song?


Heck, one of the most popular TV shows ever (MASH) basically ignored the fact that they were in Korea, which was not Vietnam, or a random Asian country.

I could go on forever, but to point out OA in particular as being offensive is so weird that you pretty much have to ignore ALL OF WESTERN MEDIA to reach that result.

OA had some issues that have not aged well, but at the very least it tried ... or, as you would put it, it was progressive for its time.

 

[Sadras]

Question, would these be appropriate arguments if you changed "Asian" to: "Mexican" or "African" or "Samoan" or "Gay" any other ethnicity / cultural identity. I personally don't think so.

Why would/do you say that?
We are discussing OA not a Mexican/African/Samoan/Gay...etc sourcebook

I'm generous in that the above reflected arguments I presented
(1) Do not challenge the justifications of the offense (which are weak in IMO); and
(2) I discount the non-Asian opinions on OA and focus merely on the Asian perspectives.

 

[Undrave]

Personally I got no horse in that race so I say we let the people who are offended by OA speak out and then respect their feelings about it. Even if they stop selling it, it'll be out there on pirate sites anyway. It's just a game after all, we can live without it.

I mean, even that's a little fraught. ninjas as they're typically depicted in Western media are sneaky assassins who sometimes use special tools and rely mostly on acrobatics to fight.

people make fun of Naruto, but that's actually a fairly typical (if not very stylized) example of how ninjas are depicted in Japanese media. the ninja you see in anime and manga are sneaky, but also have a heavy emphasis on magical abilities to fight and hide, and there's also a lot of specialized equipment that I'm not entirely sure gets shown in Western versions of ninjas.

it also doesn't help that ninja society was incredibly secretive and therefore we have little to no primary sources on their history.

It's also been my experience that ninjas are taken WAAAAAY more seriously in western media than in Japanese media proper. For every serious depiction there's like 5 comical. One of the most enduring 'ninja' is Ishikawa Goemon who was made famous by k

So basically you are not allowed to use fantasy in a fantasy RPG (number 5).
And when only Asian humans are allowed to use Asian themed classes in game the next step will be that only real life ethnic Asians are allowed to play those Asian humans as someone else playing them would also be white washing/cultural approbation

Way to miss the point there... The point is that these concepts arise from specific cultural systems and you shouldn't strip them away. A Samurai isn't just a 'guy with a katana', he's a part of a specific system of governance. So an Elf culture can create samurai so long as they have an analog to the Japanese feudal system. What you can't do is just plop a Dwarf with a curved sword in a traditional Tolkien Mine and call him a 'samurai' just because.

Why should OA have a "5E successor" at all? I mean, serious question? That seems like a weird suggestion.

It seems like address the points the OP made would be much more valuable than trying to create an "unoffensive" version of something that's a dubious concept to start with.

Personally, I'm expecting one of the more asian-inspired M:TG setting could get the Theros treatment.

 

[dave2008]

Why would/do you say that?

I am arguing the way you phrased your arguments is questionable. You worded your arguments form the assumption that Asians are "others," with all the baggage that includes.

The fact that you don't realize that suggest you don't know what I am talking about. Since it is not my area of expertise either I will leave it at that.

 

[FrogReaver]

Way to miss the point there... The point is that these concepts arise from specific cultural systems and you shouldn't strip them away. A Samurai isn't just a 'guy with a katana', he's a part of a specific system of governance. So an Elf culture can create samurai so long as they have an analog to the Japanese feudal system. What you can't do is just plop a Dwarf with a curved sword in a traditional Tolkien Mine and call him a 'samurai' just because.

Thanks for giving me a cool character idea.