Another Immortals Handbook thread

[Anabstercorian]

Craig, I FORBID you to read Sepulchrave's story hour until you've finished the damn IH.

 

[Starman]

If they truly embraced individualism they wouldn't be assigned a set alignment, so I disagree with the above conjecture. Interesting though.

In Sep's game their alignment isn't totally set. The paladin, Eadric, and the druid, Nwm, helped redeem a succubus at one point. It's not a frequent event, to be sure. But it seems that it is possible.

Starman

 

[Cheiromancer]

The ability to gain class levels denotes a measure of free will, that is simply something Outsiders never have, and by Outsiders I am specifically refering to 'spirits', such as Demons, Devils, Angels etc.

Now that is not to say that Outsiders do not understand free will (I sort of touch on this in the IH: Bestiary with the whole idea of Dimensional Bleeding and the problems that initially caused). But Outsiders are not 'born' of free will, unlike mortals.

To get a bit more technical, mortals are born of the Dimension of Assiah, the Material Plane. This is the dimension of space and is linked to fate. It comprises of 3 dimensions (left-right, forward-back, up-down) and as such, choice, is ingrained within it.

All the other dimensions are comprised of a single dimension. Therefore true free will does not exist for its natives.

Thats why demons are Always Chaotic Evil for example.

Does your system support a cosmology that has fallen angels? I.e. like Milton's Paradise Lost? As in Milton, Sep's mythos involves a revolt in heaven; they lose, and their leader loses his name, to be known thereafter simply as the Adversary. These angels fell to Hell, but some of them subsequently revolted against the Adversary; the refugees from the second revolt went to the Abyss. They are called the "twice fallen." The succubus Nehael (Lady Despina), whose conversion is the basis of the first part of the story hour, might be described as "thrice fallen." But she is clearly a special case, though this is apparent only in retrospect.

The point is that Sep's cosmology requires that celestials have multiple "choice points" in their history, much as people do. (Some philosophers would hold that our own experience of choice is an illusion, but that is a different story. And even if our free will is an illusion, celestials would need to experience a similar kind of illusion in order to be described as fallen, much less twice or thrice fallen.)

If they truly embraced individualism they wouldn't be assigned a set alignment, so I disagree with the above conjecture. Interesting though.

Except they sorted themselves into groups according to their individual choices. Tho fallen who were lawful and evil went into Hell. Those who were chaotic and evil went to the Abyss. I am not sure what role neutral evil fiends play in the cosmology, but I suspect that the second revolt polarized alignments; either you stayed faithful to the Adversary (and stayed lawful) or you didn't (and became chaotic). The alignment of the plane in which you were residing probably plays a role. Still, I bet some stragglers from the second revolt ended up in Hades and are ethically neutral.

What is true of celestials is that their alignments tend to be strongly polarized. When they are good, they are very, very good, and when they are bad they are horrid. Part of that is due to the length of time they have to develop morally and ethically; a process of corruption that is allowed to run for thousands, millions or billions of years will produce a very evil being. Similarly something that renders them chaotic. Since they are "intended" to be good, their evil is pathological, and tends to extremes. Also, part of their alignment extremism is due to the company they keep, and the plane they reside on. It is hard to be in Hell for millions of years, surrounded by fiends, without getting a little twisted yourself.

Could you have different (bitterly opposed) religions who worship the same deity? Although this is obviously (and painfully) possible in our world, it would seem that it would be impossible in most D&D campaigns.

It would probably depend upon either divine cooperation or divine antipathy.

Either the deity would actively support the schism (assumes a chaotic god, probably neutral or even evil), or the deity is simply so far removed from the day to day workings of its worshippers that it doesn't really care that much (at least Intermediate power, more likely Greater power).

Oronthonism is a type of solar monotheism. In the early part of the story hour it is similar in feel to medieval Catholicism. He's definitely a Greater power. Lawful Good, but possibly a bit schizophrenic from the competing priorities of perfect Law and perfect Goodness. I am also sensing something like the theme from the Valus campaign setting that gods can have both good and evil aspects. (Valusian gods all have the Good and Evil domains; neutral clerics can take one if they also take the other)

As for being detached, well, Oronthon usually (always?) works through angelic intermediaries, and I'm not sure how much initiative and interpretation his angels operate under. When someone communes with Oronthon, they get the angel in charge of revelation. I suspect that when angels commune with Oronthon, they in turn get a higher level angel. Maybe its angels all the way up, and Oronthon is an "emergent property" of the system?

Have you read the Sandman spinoff "Lucifer"? The angels in that series generally rely on their own understanding of God's will, though a few of them (e.g. Michael) very occasionally receive messages directly. I think that might be closer to Sep's intent.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

Craig, I FORBID you to read Sepulchrave's story hour until you've finished the damn IH.

I know mate - don't worry I won't go there, even to peek.

In Sep's game their alignment isn't totally set.

Well that makes more sense with regards his perspective on things, though it doesn't account for stagnation.

The paladin, Eadric, and the druid, Nwm, helped redeem a succubus at one point. It's not a frequent event, to be sure. But it seems that it is possible.

Well I think the key point here is that it took outside interference to redeem the Succubus.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Cheiromancer mate!

Does your system support a cosmology that has fallen angels?

Of course, but the catalyst for their fall is always something extreneous to their being.

I.e. like Milton's Paradise Lost? As in Milton, Sep's mythos involves a revolt in heaven; they lose, and their leader loses his name, to be known thereafter simply as the Adversary. These angels fell to Hell, but some of them subsequently revolted against the Adversary; the refugees from the second revolt went to the Abyss. They are called the "twice fallen." The succubus Nehael (Lady Despina), whose conversion is the basis of the first part of the story hour, might be described as "thrice fallen." But she is clearly a special case, though this is apparent only in retrospect.

To expand upon my point above.

Lucifer revolted because of the attention GOD was giving to mortals.

Semyaza subsequently revolted after a period wherein the Grigori were living amidst mortals.

Its clear that in both cases 'dimensional bleeding' led to the revolts. In the first instance 'free will' was introduced to heaven, and in the second the angels were living within the dimension of mortals for an extended period of time.

The point is that Sep's cosmology requires that celestials have multiple "choice points" in their history, much as people do. (Some philosophers would hold that our own experience of choice is an illusion, but that is a different story. And even if our free will is an illusion, celestials would need to experience a similar kind of illusion in order to be described as fallen, much less twice or thrice fallen.)

These 'choice points' I would (for the most part) consider dimensional bleeding.

Except they sorted themselves into groups according to their individual choices. Tho fallen who were lawful and evil went into Hell. Those who were chaotic and evil went to the Abyss. I am not sure what role neutral evil fiends play in the cosmology, but I suspect that the second revolt polarized alignments; either you stayed faithful to the Adversary (and stayed lawful) or you didn't (and became chaotic). The alignment of the plane in which you were residing probably plays a role. Still, I bet some stragglers from the second revolt ended up in Hades and are ethically neutral.

By the same token I don't believe all devils (or demons) were once angels. Some are simply the once souls of mortals.

What is true of celestials is that their alignments tend to be strongly polarized. When they are good, they are very, very good, and when they are bad they are horrid. Part of that is due to the length of time they have to develop morally and ethically; a process of corruption that is allowed to run for thousands, millions or billions of years will produce a very evil being. Similarly something that renders them chaotic. Since they are "intended" to be good, their evil is pathological, and tends to extremes. Also, part of their alignment extremism is due to the company they keep, and the plane they reside on. It is hard to be in Hell for millions of years, surrounded by fiends, without getting a little twisted yourself.

I think that is true for all spirits. Once the soul arrives at its destination and becomes a spirit, it is inevitably and inextricably linked to that plane.

Oronthonism is a type of solar monotheism. In the early part of the story hour it is similar in feel to medieval Catholicism. He's definitely a Greater power. Lawful Good, but possibly a bit schizophrenic from the competing priorities of perfect Law and perfect Goodness. I am also sensing something like the theme from the Valus campaign setting that gods can have both good and evil aspects. (Valusian gods all have the Good and Evil domains; neutral clerics can take one if they also take the other)

I have a list and alignment of all the gods and pantheons I hope to include within the Immortals Index. I have been able to spread the Pantheons out over the various alignments which of course meant that I was taking a few liberties with some of them, such as the Canaanite God, El which I have as Lawful Evil.

However each Pantheon has a mirror opposite that allows you to simply swop the alignments around. So for instance the Greek Pantheon is led by the Chaotic Good Zeus, whereas its shadow counterpart (the occult term for this is favarshi); the Roman Pantheon is led by the Lawful Evil Jupiter.

As for being detached, well, Oronthon usually (always?) works through angelic intermediaries, and I'm not sure how much initiative and interpretation his angels operate under. When someone communes with Oronthon, they get the angel in charge of revelation. I suspect that when angels commune with Oronthon, they in turn get a higher level angel. Maybe its angels all the way up, and Oronthon is an "emergent property" of the system?

I'm curious, have you seen the Bestiary Vol.1 yet?

Have you read the Sandman spinoff "Lucifer"? The angels in that series generally rely on their own understanding of God's will, though a few of them (e.g. Michael) very occasionally receive messages directly. I think that might be closer to Sep's intent.

I have read a few issues, but not enough to really familiarise myself with it.

Are there any trades for this that would get me into it quick (presumably collecting the first half dozen or so issues would do the trick I imagine)?

 

[Cheiromancer]

I'm curious, have you seen the Bestiary Vol.1 yet?

No. I was hoping that it would get to RPG Now before very much longer.

Are there any trades for this that would get me into it quick (presumably collecting the first half dozen or so issues would do the trick I imagine)?

Yeah. The 8th one just came out. (Issue 45 and 50-54). Issue 50 is "Lilith" and has its own take on Lucifer's fall. Still what you would call "dimensional bleeding," though. (Lilith's seduction of one of the angels is instrumental in getting it started. But Lilith is Adam's first wife and is human, though apparently both immortal and extremely fertile).

On God's standoffishness. Issue 50 has a little dialogue between Lucifer (whose proper name is Samael) and Gabriel.

Gabriel- "Yahweh has said nothing to any of us since the business of Creation was finished. But he fashioned us to be his hands and his tools. For us to remain idle would therefore be a sin."

Samael/Lucifer- "So we are to finish out eternity trying to second-guess his intentions? To be his tools? As if there were some kind of nobility in self-abasement?"

Gabriel- "And is there not?"

Samael/Lucifer- "None that I can see. We are his children-- his first-born. The freedom he enjoys is our birthright too."

Etc.

The movie "What dreams may come" surprised me when it came out- God seemed as inaccessible to the souls of the dead as to living beings. But now the trope is more familiar; he is more or less equally (in)accessible to all finite beings.


Now, I don't know if mortals were a factor in the Great Revolt in Sep's mythos. They were seeking greater freedom and autonomy, but I don't know if this desire was triggered by something outside of them.

 

[Sledge]

I'm finding it very interesting that much of my personal planar overview will be completely contrary to that in the Immortal's handbook. For instance in my viewpoint anything in the regular outsider hierarchy was once a mortal. Freedom of choice is an inherent part of all these outsiders as their status here is just another stepping stone in their evolution. As mortals the evolution is primarily symbolic and such, but once these mortal transition to outsiders they lose their access to their memories without losing their memories influence on their choices. At this point they begin a literal and physical evolution as they progress and develop. In theory as well (never had to deal with this quite yet) there are steps beyond outsider. Several of these will probably be me kidnapping stuff from the IH. At these further steps I will also reveal the big darks. Forces that wanted to do it all differently, and without freedom of choice. These forces will likely redefine evil, as their actions will always be large scale changes.
Hopefully I can keeping mining fluff for ideas while I steal critters.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Krusty, if you never hammer out a target date for your next release, maybe you'll never get krustified on the crosshairs, but you'll never finish the book.

 

[Zoatebix]

Time to distract you for a minute or two, sir!

Okay, I dragged out my version 4 challenge rating document yet again, and I'm a little confused about ability scores. The numbers on pages eight and nineteen don't seem to agree. If the CR factor for +1 to an ability score is 0.1 CR, then shouldn't the percent CR for ability score increases be 2.5%? 5 times .1 divided by 20 is 2.5%, right - just like 11 fighter bonus feats is 11 times .2 divided by 20 is 11%?

On a somewhat unrelated thread, and assuming page 19 is the typo and not page eight, would it be acceptable to update the epic feats "Great [ability score]" so that they give a +2 bonus to the score?

Third nitpicky thing: The Bestiary vol 1 has no Identification of Open Game Content, nor a declaration of product identity.

I found a few more edits to email you, but I forgot to write them down, so I'll have to find them again.

The more I read, the more I enjoy the work, and the more I look forward to future installments.

 

[Campbell]

Zoatebix, this should help.

How Ability Scores are determined:
• Total all rated ability scores.
• Subtract 63 from the total (representing 10.5 per ability score)
• Divide remainder by 10 to get the CR modifier

1. Ability Score Increases: +5 (+1/4 Levels) CR +0.05

Version 5 doesn't seem to address percentages at all, even within the class breakdown.