Another Paladin Thread: Throw Rocks!

[Deuce Traveler]

It would depend on the game world you were playing in. If orcs are always evil, psycopaths and the party is campaigning in a lawless area, then I think this paladin's behavior would be understandable. If it is possible to redeem some and the local law is big on putting any humanoid on trial before execution, then I would say this behavior is not acceptable.

 

[Deuce Traveler]

On a related note...my paladin, Herax Marshall

Currently my RPG group is playing the Temple of Elemental Evil (original). My paladin is a worshipper of Pelor, and he's a rough-and-ready type. He doesn't wear polished armor since he likes to try to sneak up on the enemy, if able, and he carries a battle-axe instead of the typical sword. Although he doesn't practice it, he tolerates shady dealings such as his companions enjoyment of ladies-of-the-night, since it isn't against the law to do so. Now to the big moral question...

We used to make an effort to take those that surrendered to us and bring them to Hommlet for imprisonment and trial, but they would either be released due to corrupt guards, or people on the outside would slay the guards and free them. The good people were frightened of the more corrupt ones in their midst, making a trial impossible.

After a few incidents, my paladin came up with a solution. He has a speech ready when he enters a room full of low-lifes or when humanoids surrender after a few rounds of combat. It goes like this: "Gentlemen, you have three choices. First, you may surrender yourselves to me and I will place you under arrest in our fortress (converted Moat House). There you will receive food and a cell to rest in, but will have no trial until we have cleansed this land of evil. This may be a long time, but afterwards you will be tried by the good people of Hommlet. Your second option is to agree to repent your evil ways and convert to Pelor. You will still be kept in a cell, but we will see to your religious education and free you when we are confident that you have seen Pelor's light (by using Detect Evil). Finally, I can judge you here and now. I warn you that my judgement is harsh, and it will most likely end with your execution. You will have your say, and if I deem you guilty, I will allow you an hour to pray to your god before giving you the axe."

So far I have had a lot of surrenders, one conversion, and one execution. The execution shocked the party. I put a river pirate on trial and his only verbal defense (after he asked for the trial) was to spit at me. So I had him locked in a room to pray for an hour, drug him out to the edge of his vessel, tied him down, and told him to say his last prayers to his sea god and asked if he had any last requests. He asked to be thrown into the sea he loved, and we had a short dialogue of mutual respect, before I gave him a moment to make his prayer, chopped his head off, and kicked both pieces of his body into the river.

The rest of the players stared wide-eyed and thought it a very un-paladin thing to do. Given the state of law in the area and the danger of keeping the really evil characters in the cells, the paladin thought it was for the best. Right now the 'Three Choices' is a running gag.

 

[tonse]

The rest of the players stared wide-eyed and thought it a very un-paladin thing to do. Given the state of law in the area and the danger of keeping the really evil characters in the cells, the paladin thought it was for the best. Right now the 'Three Choices' is a running gag.

For me life as a paladin never has been about being a nice guy, but about making tough decissions and living with the consequences. Your party faced a huge dilemma and you were the one to come up with a practical solution. You did the dirty work, they did the whining. So unless the rest of your party consists of aasimars, demigods and the proverbial only good drow, they just have no business to question you. After all adminstering justice is what you do for a living.

To be slightly OT: What's the reason nobody tells a thief how to pick locks, but everbody knows how a paladin is played "right"?

 

[delericho]

What the paladin did was stupid and chaotic. I would stop well short of saying it was evil, though.

It was stupid because when the (hypothetical) scouts of the (hypothetical) rest of the tribe find the bodies, and determine that their fellow was cut down in cold blood while unarmed and running away, they'll know not to surrender in future. Which denies the party any future access to information from members of that tribe.

It was chaotic because the party (as a whole) had agreed terms with the orc: information for his life. If the paladin had had an issue with that arrangement, she should have voiced this before the deal was made. To renege on a deal after the other party had maintained their part of the bargain is chaotic. (And this is a clear case of plea-bargaining, which is hardly a new concept, nor one at odds with a lawful justice system.)

The reason I would stop short of labelling this 'evil' is that the orc in question was an enemy combatant, was probably evil himself, and would almost certainly have caused the goodly folk of the region more trouble in the future. I think the manner of the 'execution' makes it a non-good act, but don't think it slides far enough to be evil.

If, however, the orc in question had not been an enemy combatant, and was being executed because "he's an orc", then I would label it evil. Genocide is a decidely evil thing, whether it's performed one individual at a time or on a larger scale.

IMC the consequences to the paladin would be as follows: I would take the paladin player aside at the end of the session (or sooner if this was at the start of a long session), and make sure she understands my position on alignment. I would point out that those actions, if continued, would result in an alignment shift... and that that alignment shift would result in a loss of paladin status when it happened. And that would be it.

My philosophy on alignment is that players should portray their characters as they see fit. If their actions don't match the alignment on the sheet, then I (as DM) will change the sheet, without fuss, and without appeal. I generally don't give alignment warnings, except to make sure early on that people know my interpretation of alignments. So, if you're playing the paladin, you're entirely free to maim, betray, murder and steal as much as you want, and I won't say anything. However, you shouldn't be surprised when the alignment on your sheet no longer reads "Lawful Good", and your class now reads "Former Paladin".

 

[Gold Roger]

Currently my RPG group is playing the Temple of Elemental Evil (original). My paladin is a worshipper of Pelor, and he's a rough-and-ready type. He doesn't wear polished armor since he likes to try to sneak up on the enemy, if able, and he carries a battle-axe instead of the typical sword. Although he doesn't practice it, he tolerates shady dealings such as his companions enjoyment of ladies-of-the-night, since it isn't against the law to do so. Now to the big moral question...

We used to make an effort to take those that surrendered to us and bring them to Hommlet for imprisonment and trial, but they would either be released due to corrupt guards, or people on the outside would slay the guards and free them. The good people were frightened of the more corrupt ones in their midst, making a trial impossible.

After a few incidents, my paladin came up with a solution. He has a speech ready when he enters a room full of low-lifes or when humanoids surrender after a few rounds of combat. It goes like this: "Gentlemen, you have three choices. First, you may surrender yourselves to me and I will place you under arrest in our fortress (converted Moat House). There you will receive food and a cell to rest in, but will have no trial until we have cleansed this land of evil. This may be a long time, but afterwards you will be tried by the good people of Hommlet. Your second option is to agree to repent your evil ways and convert to Pelor. You will still be kept in a cell, but we will see to your religious education and free you when we are confident that you have seen Pelor's light (by using Detect Evil). Finally, I can judge you here and now. I warn you that my judgement is harsh, and it will most likely end with your execution. You will have your say, and if I deem you guilty, I will allow you an hour to pray to your god before giving you the axe."

So far I have had a lot of surrenders, one conversion, and one execution. The execution shocked the party. I put a river pirate on trial and his only verbal defense (after he asked for the trial) was to spit at me. So I had him locked in a room to pray for an hour, drug him out to the edge of his vessel, tied him down, and told him to say his last prayers to his sea god and asked if he had any last requests. He asked to be thrown into the sea he loved, and we had a short dialogue of mutual respect, before I gave him a moment to make his prayer, chopped his head off, and kicked both pieces of his body into the river.

The rest of the players stared wide-eyed and thought it a very un-paladin thing to do. Given the state of law in the area and the danger of keeping the really evil characters in the cells, the paladin thought it was for the best. Right now the 'Three Choices' is a running gag.

Now that's a paladin I can respect. I generally don't like executions in D&D, but if done after a fair trial and in a good way, like here, that's alright.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

To be slightly OT: What's the reason nobody tells a thief how to pick locks, but everbody knows how a paladin is played "right"?

Check for all the threads on people who have rogues that steal from party members.

 

[Imruphel]

(snip) 'Three Choices' (snip)

Sorry, I hate needless overquoting so lots of snippage there.

Great story, Deuce Traveller. I think you played that paladin perfectly and that that story is worth saving as an example of a well-played paladin.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Did the paladin agree to the terms of the deal with the orc?
Was the orc evil in alignment?
The code states that paladin's punish those who harm or threaten innocents, did the orc do that previously?
Was it against the legitimate authorities laws to kill the orc?

If the paladin didn't agree to the terms of the deal, knew the orc was evil and had harmed, had a history of harming and/or threating innocents and was not protected by the any governing laws -- I don't see the paladin as having violated any portion of her code of conduct.

This reflects my opinion on the matter too.

 

[Turanil]

The paladin's player obviously doesn't understand the paladin concept and how it should be played. I would be the DM she would lose her paladin status. Then, since I am not a harsh DM, I would later let her become a LE paladin (as per Unearthed Arcana variant).

 

[Henry]

If the orc is evil, he's going to raise his kids to be evil. Letting him go you're turning 14 orcs who will without doubt be evil upon the world. Just because someone whines and pleads when disarmed does not make them good or even neutral.

One thing that always gets to me is that people start talking about trials in lawless lands. If the orc were a member of an organized nation or something, that's one thing. But a lawless bandit who has been part of raiding parties, etc. justice IS killing him, not letting him go.

Now, if this were someone who showed nonviolent tendencies, even in the fight, it would be different; but more than likely, he was snarling and hacking away at the party with the rest of his marauding band just 10 rounds ago, and the only reason he's pulling the "wife and kids" schtick is to save his green toothy butt.

On the final hand, however, if the paladin's party DID make a deal beforehand with the orc for safety, it's a breach of code and needs to be addressed.