another rpg industry doomsday article (merged: all 3 "Mishler Rant" threads)

[JohnRTroy]

Nah, nevermind...

 

[stuart]

An interesting historical quote on minis + early D&D...

From a column by Gary Gygax in The Dragon #15 (June 1978):

For about two years D&D was played without benefit of any visual aids by the majority of enthusiasts. They held literally that it was a paper and pencil game, and if some particular situation arose which demanded more than verbalization, they would draw or place dice as tokens in order to picture the conditions. In 1976 a movement began among D&Ders to portray characters with actual miniature figurines.
​

Now, before anyone thinks I'm a minis hater... do a quick Google search for "making miniatures for D&D"

Minis are lots of fun, but they do change the style of game you're playing quite a bit. D&D has been played both with and without minis from basically the very beginning -- so it's no surprise that people still like playing it both with and without minis.

 

[pawsplay]

Charging $29.95 for a PDF that is not even a set of rules is a pipe dream. Most PDFs are probably five times too expensive. As a result, the market is sluggish and an audience has yet to appear, because they are not being dealt with fairly. PDFs are electrons, and it's not the buyer's fault your PDF sales do not do enough volume.

The criticism in the article not only fails to grasp the future, it misses the present by a mile. PDF sales are not direct competition to print sales, as has been demonstrated time and again. PDFs cost too much. The market has never developed because publishers treat buyers disrespectfully. If publishers can get down a reasonable pricing point, the audience grows, which helps drive future sales. Currently, PDF sales tend to be in the hundreds, maybe the thousands, and that's where the problem is. Solve that problem, and you solve not only the production cost problem but the PDF pricing "problem."

Show me a lineup of $5 RPGs, and I'll show you an evergreen future with a great profit margin. I'd buy one of those every month!

 

[JoeGKushner]

Mishler is known in the industry, even if many fans don't know him by name. He's a member of the "cabal", my code word for the game designers who made the "secret mailing list". So I doubt this was any sort of deliberate trolling--he was simply answering somebody's honest questions and he got

As far as GURPS goes, I'm a fan, but I'm not sure GURPS is as healthy as it once was. I remember when they were releasing 6-8 supplements a year or so and the amount of stuff coming out has really dwindled over this decade. I think they were the victim of the d20 glut--as more d20 games got popular they suffered. I'm disapppointed because I loved GURPS, but wish they'd make more supplements.

GURPS is a victim of SJG success of it's other children, in particular Munchkin.

 

[Intense_Interest]

A member of Gygax's group from back in the day has contradicted your interpretation.

Gygax lies, misinterprets, and obfuscates a LOT.

For example, the original creation of the Owlbear, Bulette, and Rust Monster, three of the most classic and original monsters ever created in OD&D, were in fact inspired by MINIS USED IN GARYS GAMES.

The owlbear is among the earliest monsters in Dungeons & Dragons and like the bulette and the rust monster, was inspired by a Hong Kong-made plastic toy purchased by Gary Gygax for use as miniature in a Chainmail game.[1]

To act as if D&D was ever a 100% non-miniature intended game is an exercise in futility.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

To act as if D&D was ever a 100% non-miniature intended game is an exercise in futility.

My 2e PHB states that miniatures are 100% optional, and that, at best, they should only be used in specific conditions to make combat positioning easier. Furthermore, it states that only the DM should have a battlemap, and that the players should not ever see them. Lastly, it recommends that, if you do use miniatures, you can use just about anything as a token, not just an official miniature.

But I guess I'm just gving an exercise in futility

 

[Intense_Interest]

My 2e PHB states that miniatures are 100% optional, and that, at best, they should only be used in specific conditions to make combat positioning easier. Furthermore, it states that only the DM should have a battlemap, and that the players should not ever see them.

A single iteration of a game that has more than 5 individual designs (OD&D, AD&D 1E, 2E, 3E, 4E) is statistical noise, for one.

And even considering 2E to be the One True Game doesn't preclude my claim that miniatures are integrated into the elemental game-play of the system in regards to combat positioning. Because the combat system as-built uses singular "spaces" of representative figures only acting during a set "initiative order". This is a miniature-based combat system, whether or not you actually use miniatures.

Lastly, it recommends that, if you do use miniatures, you can use just about anything as a token, not just an official miniature.

Semantic arguments are wastes of time and an immature debating tactic. "Tokens" are miniatures by any other name.

 

[Umbran]

Well, it seems this thread has progressed to the point of calling dead men liars. Isn't that special.

You know, the guy probably wasn't a saint. He probably told a fib here or there in his life. But how utterly classless are we willing to be to score a point in an internet discussion? Talk about defenseless targets.

There's a bunch of other sub-standard arguing methods going on here, too. So, folks, here's the deal. Agree to disagree. Agree that maybe your point is subject to interpretation. Whatever - just treat people with a modicum of respect. 'Cause if you have to be a jerk to make your point, really, your point isn't strong enough to make.

 

[Treebore]

Gygax lies, misinterprets, and obfuscates a LOT.

You are the first person to ever, on any message board, give me reason to put them on the ignore list.