Another TPK - Sigh.

[Nareau]

The object of the game is to have fun, but how fun is it when players count on the genersoity of the DM to not get TPK'ed

Well, you don't have to be generous to avoid TPK's. My first thought on this was:
The ogres track the party back to their camp. They attack. They make sure to keep the whole party alive (subdual damage). Afterwards, they ransack the party's camp, and revive the party members. The very evil and very vengeful ogres then proceed to force the group to choose one PC to be beheaded. Then the ogres give the other PC's daggers, and force them to cut off their friend's head (with the only other option being to be slaughtered). They leave the party with their friend's head, and take the corpse back to their cave for a nice midnight snack.

Granted, that scenario is more suited to a horror game than anything else. But I guarantee you that doing something like that will leave a much more lasting impression on the character -- and the players -- than another TPK would. (Oh, just read Nifft's post; basically the same idea!)

Actually, I probably would have suggested several options to the players before they ever raided the ogre cavern. I'd have done it in character of course. It sounds like the party didn't consider other (possibly better) options of: 1) Set a trap; 2) Research what the ogres are doing; 3) etc.

I've never had a TPK, because I know neither myself nor my group would enjoy it. We've come pretty close (1 PC escaping by the skin of his teeth), but the primary PC's were always retrievable. Granted, the player might have to fight zombie versions of their former PC's first...

Spider

 

[Sunderstone]

swrushing... the sneaky commando Ogre point is kinda moot anyway. I believe the Ogre leader used an entangle from a distance first.

 

[Coredump]

Int 6 doesn't mean they are drooling morons. Even the SRD says they are intellegent enough to use range weapons first. An Int of 14 is pretty smart, but you don't consider it a genius. Likewise, a 6 isn't going to be inventing much, but sure knows to come in out of the rain, or to use spells before attacking. Many predaters use some killer tactics, and they have an Int of 2 (at best). Assuming 10 is average, there is probably a decent number of people in the current armed forces with and Int of 6. (Not slamming any country, or the armed forces, same could be said about most occupations)

And for the opposed check, don't forget the +1 per 10'. So the sleeping folks have a pretty rough check ahead of them. And even then, they wake up, doesn't mean they know what is going on. (And as mentioned, Entangle has a min range of 440')

As for the TPK, other solutions would probably have been better. Since they would have allowed them to fix their mistake, and they are more likely to avoid doing it again if they have to role play slaves/miners than if they just re-roll and start over.

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[ForceUser]

The leader had a 6 Int, sure, but he had a 14 Wis. Wisdom is cunning. Cunning is following tracks to an enemy's camp and ambushing them.

 

[swrushing]

Well, gee, shows what i know.

When i ran my ogres as smart and cunning and savvy as children, and as coordinated, they seemed to perform at their cr level, repeatedly.

When you run ogres as smart and cunning as they were, staging a fairly well coordinated raid, getting ambush, etc, you got a tpk.

guess i am just way off base with this whole "not tactically skilled" notion for int 6 and the "not all that stealthy" notion for -8 net to the rolls.

oh well, live and learn.

it should be interesting to see how they Gm the int 6 hide/silent check -8 PCs when they try and conduct commando raids. Wonder if they will go as flawelessly as the ogres do?

 

[swrushing]

The leader had a 6 Int, sure, but he had a 14 Wis. Wisdom is cunning. Cunning is following tracks to an enemy's camp and ambushing them.

and int 6 is forgetting for the moment what your orders were and doing what you want to do anyway.

or would you allow a team of int 6 pcs who dumped that stat for brawn to be told a battle plan and follow it flawlessly every time? They never forget their role, never forget their timing, never just say "the heck with it" and do what comes natural, but always follow orders?

Man, would i not want to be a bugbear in your game. None of the crushing damage of the ogre and no big deal to have a brain bigger than my... well, you get the picture.

ogres run intelligently, using good tactics and well coordinated commando style engagements, not hindered by their lack of stealth, able to reach melee range easily and en masse and timed well... those are MUCH higher than CR2.

 

[Banshee16]

Tonight my players rolled new characters for the third time in ten months of regular play. Twice before they've wiped out. I feel bad about it, and as a storyteller it's frustrating because it seems that we're constantly taking steps backward instead of forward. Evaluating my DMing style, I don't feel that I'm "out to get" my players, nor do I feel like I put them up against unreasonable threats. It's just that the threats they face sometimes require finesse and smart planning, an understanding of the situations they face, and I often get the feeling that my players aren't quite totally aware of the consequences of their actions.

For example, tonight they faced a small tribe of ogres. The party was 3rd-5th level (7 characters, average level 4th) and were tackling the problem of anywhere from 5-8 ogres who were raiding nearby villages. They knew the ogre leader could cast call lightning, which made him at least a 5th-level druid or spirit shaman (with nonassociated class levels for being an ogre spirit shaman, he was CR 6). They knew the regular ogres numbered 4-7. They knew where the ogres laired, and they knew that the ogres spent their recent days plundering the nearby barrow-tombs of ancient pagan chieftains. The ogres were not aware of them, and so they knew they had all the time they needed to plot a strategy to tackle the problem.

Instead, they entered the ogre lair during the day, while most of the ogres were out, ransacked the place, and killed the single ogre sentry. They left his head on a pike as a warning (or a boast, I'm not sure) and departed. The ogres returned home that evening, saw their slaughtered kin, and promptly organized a search for the culprits.

Meanwhile, the party had retreated half a mile away from the ogres' lair, built a fire, set a watch, and went to bed. The ogre leader was a tracker. With low-light vision, a rising moon and all night to track, he found the party by spotting their campfire at a distance. He fell back, put bull's strength on himself and a few others, cast shillelagh on his greatclub, then moved within the edge of medium range and targeted the PCs' campfire with entangle. Caught completely by surprise, the group didn't have much of a chance. They all died.

Could I have let them slide and not followed the logical outcome of their actions, based on the monsters' capabilities? I suppose. Could I have gone easy on them during the fight and flubbed a few crucial die rolls? I guess I could have. I didn't, though, because I believe in fair play. I believe in adhering closely to the rules and the capabilities of my NPCs. Should I go easy on the PCs when they make bad decisions (such as leaving the campfire lit after raiding the ogre lair)? Twice now, bad decisions on the part of the players have caused TPKs. They're not all newbies; some are veteran players. I don't like changing my leveled approach to DMing to accomodate the players' poor choices. I also don't like starting over all the time.

What would you have done?

The only thing I'd say is that it sounds like the encounter level was high for the party...I mean, the leader was a level 5 druid ogre....plus several normal ogres? Getting surprise at night? That's a CR for the encounter of something like 10 or 11, I'd think....no wonder they died..

The tactics they used seemed rather advanced for ogres as well...aren't they like INT 6? That's not very bright...something like 60-70 IQ...even if they tracked the party, they'd probably lumber right into the camp, with less preparation..

Sometimes I'll give warnings if my players are doing something foolish..."Ok, so you're doing this...?"...they often take the hint. I save it for times when they're doing something that could have disastrous effects..

Banshee

 

[takyris]

The leader had a 6 Int, sure, but he had a 14 Wis. Wisdom is cunning. Cunning is following tracks to an enemy's camp and ambushing them.

Actually, I'd disagree with that. My personal take (and this is all that it is) is that Intelligence is what lets somebody come up with a good tactical plan. Wisdom is what lets them react to the circumstances as the plan unfolds. That's the way I play my monsters. A high-Int, low-Wis character constructs a brilliant plan and then goes to pieces as soon as the PCs throw a wrench into the gears. A low-Int, high-Wis person is good at reacting to situations, not taking the initiative and formulating strategy. There's a reason that Knowledge(tactics) is still and Int-based skill in d20 Modern.

With an Int of 6, he doesn't have anything more complex than "Hit 'em" in mind. But after he sees a couple of ogres go down from spells, he shouts, "Hey, me do that too!" and throws down the Entangle and Call Lightning. So my personal opinion would be that you played this guy as far too intelligent -- I was assuming that his Int was higher than the Ogre norm because he was a leader, but if he still had an Int of 6, that was, to my mind, excessive.

However, that nitpick aside, I would say, less snarkily than some, that what you have here is a difference of gaming style. I don't think you're a killer DM. I don't think the players are idiots. I think that anyone who thinks either of those things is a bit too wrapped up in his or her own gaming style to see that other possibilities exist.

Story folks -- what's wrong here? The players are getting lazy in helping tell the story. They want to fast-forward to the good bits, and they're forgetting to do enough realistic stuff to actually merit the big dramatic fight they want in the end. Don't get me wrong -- if I was roleplaying a low-Int or low-Wis person, I'd have no problem coming up with a justification for lighting a campfire and going to sleep. But if the high-Int, high-Wis people were doing this, it seems like they weren't taking this as seriously as they could. Or that they were missing things that were described to them. Or that they need to ask more questions of the GM to get information that will be helpful in avoiding mistakes like these.

Tactics folks -- what's wrong here? The GM is training the players harshly, and they're going to quickly become adversarial. Regardless of whether a TPK was logically justified, hitting them with it when they had at least tried some kind of strategy -- "Hey, they're ogres, we'll have time to hear them coming, and we won't be fatigued" -- is just going to teach them that they're never going to be as smart as the GM, and really, it's just because the GM knows everything. It sets up a relationship where the only way the players have to win the game is to whine or, as they see it, kill any kind of free will and beat the strategy game the GM has set up. Not, to their minds, fun, and they're going to start doing stuff to break the game, intentionally or unintentionally. This might have been one. So the GM needs to lighten up.

Both sides have room to grow here. Ain't nobody smelling like roses in a TPK.

 

[Cinderfall]

Well, Force User, I thought you did it about right. Some of the other solutions would have worked as well (capture or noting the visibility of the camp fire for example) but I think the tone was set by the PCs. Piking heads has a tendency to cause one of two reactions - fear or anger. I don't think the loss of a single member of the clan would be enough to cause fear, so I can see them being quite upset.

As far as tactics are concerned I think you did fine. Sure Ogres aren't smart but that doesn't mean they can't learn tactics through experience. I see low intelligence as meaning that they don't adapt well to new/unexpected/complicated situations. Combat via ambush they know, as mentioned in the MM (I think, don't have a MM with me). Little reason to list that as a typical tactic if the Ogres are too retarded to carry it out. Plus how much intelligence does it take to "wait for the leader to cast the living bushes spell, then attack"?

The comparison between them and children is a bit off in my opinion as children haven't any life experience (little common sense). Provided that the ogres involved were adults they shouldn't have had any problem ambushing the group. Plus they are led by an even more experienced ogre, one who obviously had enough common sense to advance in levels. He's also the biggest/toughest so I could see the ogres listening to him (out of fear of course), if they don't they get hammered. Also mentioned is the fact that animals like wolves or hyenas utilize pretty cunning tactics when they hunt and they have an INT of 2.

Mechanically, there are pretty heavy penalties for hearing things at range (as already mentioned) plus the attack happened at night. As to the suggestions of torturing or killing one of the PCs, I don't know how well that would work - it depends on the players. Some groups might accept witnessing the horrific death of a fellow party member, others very well might not (leading to a TPK as they resist). Like I said that depends on the group (I know my group wouldn't).

Personally, as a player I would rather have my character killed than coddled. Knowing that the DM saved my character would ruin everything my character accomplished up to that point. It also takes the excitement out of combat. I've had it happen, one of my friends has a tendency to DM that way. Totally sucks the life out of the game. My group feels the same way. Heck, I roll most of the time right in front of them. That way they know that what they choose to do is really really important. They KNOW I won't slack on them. It has brought a lot of creativity out of our group and a lot of life to the game. Anyway, that my thoughts. Thanks for reading.

P.S. I think I would like to game with Force User too.

 

[sfedi]

The only objection I have is that the Character's didn't realize that it was such a great risk to camp with a fire at half a mile near the Ogre cave.

I DM much like you do, but ask yourself this:

Would you allow an NPC adventurer to make this mistake?
Wouldn't it seem obvious to most characters (whether PC or NPC) ?

For the rest of the situation, I agree with ForceUser.