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Anti-Pretentious games

Nisarg

Banned
Banned
GMSkarka said:
One of these days, I'm going to write an essay, studying the tendency among gamers to attack anything that they perceive as elevating itself above the norm. It's my belief that generally speaking, this is a residual effect of gamers as a social class having being bullied in their pasts--anything that they feel sets itself "above" them is somehow threatening, harkening back to the days when they were oppressed. It's kinda sad, really.

You do that, someday I'll write the paper about the tendency among certain gamers to align themselves fanatically with RPGs that claim to "elevated above the norm" of other RPGs for the sake of feeling that they are part of a special exclusive elite within our hobby; I would attribute that, generally speaking, this is a residual effect of past teenage outcasts' tendency to adopt justificational philosophies or counter-cultures to try to explain their bullying by other children ("they didn't pick on me because i'm a loser.. they picked on me because i'm a super-special artist and those common kids couldn't possibly understand me!! They dunk my head in the toilet because i'm a dark poet who threatens their very being with my superior intelligence, and not because i'm a pathetic wanker who'll be a virgin till i'm 33!!").

The need to be king of the beggars, now that's sad.

Nisarg
 

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eyebeams

Explorer
"For a fan of RPGs that constantly make up words to describe things that could easily be described in plain english, you are certainly being picky now."

Actually, we usually just use existing words. Neologisms in games mostly refer to rules terms -- "blindfighting" is not actually a real word, for instance, and "race" ought not to be used interchangeably with "species." On the other hand, Quinteesence in Mage fits the actual original definition of quintessence. Archaic terms in new contexts is a common device in all sorts of creative work, including the fiction that inspires games like Vampire. Plus, of course, for flowery language, you need look no further than HP Lovecraft.

"I agree that GURPS has this kind of pretentiousness. Specifically because the system tends to break at very high power levels, thus making it at least a very poor universality."

More to the point -- it just doesn't model some things according to experience. John Clements (a well-known historical swordmanship expert) outlined what a "realistic" combat system might be like; it had five or so ranks and no skills for individual weapons, and asserted that even slightly better fighters dominate less skilled ones. This in no way resembles how GURPS combat works. We'll leave aside the fact that the game just ignores any psychological dimension and TLs don't make any historical sense.

"Vampire and other white wolf products (right up to and including the new WoD main book) make claims that they are "storytelling games" that are an inherently superior experience to "roll-playing games""

They don't . . .

"(and yes, the latest WoD corebook drags that old chestnut howling from the vaults), creating something inherently more "meaningful" than the aformentioned."

. . . and it doesn't. In fact, it specifically declaims that. It does use an accessible term for gaming styles that over-fixate on using game mechanics, and as this can even be a problem in highly gamist D&D (where rules arguments can derial play), it's good advice. It doesn't make any claims about the WoD RPG's virtues, though. Pretentiousness is a claim.

"It is not inherently superior, and it does not create an inherently more meaningful experience. Therefore its pretentious."

It does not claim to be either.

"I agree, and it fits the defintion used in this thread which you've tried to ignore: OtE makes no claims about intelligence or originality and yet its one of the most intelligent and original RPGs around."

The games yu don't like don't make any such claim, either. You keep fibbing about what the books say -- actually, let's say you make an unfounded claim. There's a word for that, you know . . . .
 

pogre

Legend
GMSkarka said:
I put this in the other bang-the-drum-yet-again thread you started, so I'll repeat it here, for the edification and perusal of folks who are reading this one and not the other:

One of these days, I'm going to write an essay, studying the tendency among gamers to attack anything that they perceive as elevating itself above the norm. It's my belief that generally speaking, this is a residual effect of gamers as a social class having being bullied in their pasts--anything that they feel sets itself "above" them is somehow threatening, harkening back to the days when they were oppressed. It's kinda sad, really.

Not sure I entirely agree, but an interesting hypothesis. I think the population as a whole does this in a lot of ways - attacking what they see as "elevated" above the norm. It's arguably much worse among mainstream past times like sports.

I am amused by the extreme positions some gamers take, and how many fail to realize what a very tiny industry gaming truly is. This extremism and use of "life and death" statements I think does tie into gamers' overall geekiness. BTW - I'm not suggesting those kind of comments are in this thread and are thankfully sparse in ENWorld as a whole.

I view arguing about games much akin to arguing about music - it's endless and mostly counter-productive. Most of us can agree on what is truly terrible music, but while I might value opera, and you rap, an argument between the two of us is by its nature going to be counter-productive.
 


Nisarg

Banned
Banned
Someone in another thread accused me of being "boring" for attacking White Wolf for being pretentious, because its like shooting fish in a barrel, its so completely known that I'm doing nothing new.

That, at least, is a more plausible criticism of my comments than actually trying to claim I'm lying about their innate claims that they are providing a superior experience in roleplaying to D&D and other games. Rein·Hagen's essays in 1st edition Vampire are embarrasing to WW fans these days, not because they don't believe in them but only because the essays are a thorn in their side any time they try to cover up just how pretentious White Wolf really is.

And the new WoD's "storytelling advice" chapter intro is only marginally more clever in leaving things slightly vague while still making the implied statements that those who dislike WW engage in "roll playing, not role playing", and that those who do play storytelling games should try to convince the poor lost souls who play other rpgs of how superior an experience storytelling is.

So, in 13 years the big leap forward in White Wolf's maturity has been that its players should officially pity the lesser mortals who play D&D, instead of downright despise them. Great progress there.

Nisarg
 

Darkness

Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
Nisarg said:
The need to be king of the beggars, now that's sad.
Humans in general are status-oriented creatures.

Many do worse things even without having been through nearly as much as the people you describe.
 

pogre

Legend
Nisarg,

I certainly have enjoyed reading this thread, but I have to ask: Why are you picking a fight? I honestly want to know what the goal of your thread is - this is not a snide comment - I'm genuinely interested.
 

Nisarg

Banned
Banned
pogre said:
Nisarg,

I certainly have enjoyed reading this thread, but I have to ask: Why are you picking a fight? I honestly want to know what the goal of your thread is - this is not a snide comment - I'm genuinely interested.

The specific goal of this thread was, using that definition of anti-pretentiousness, give props to games that we feel have managed to be really smart and original without having to make a big show of claiming how intelligent and original they are... unfortunately its getting sidetracked by other issues, but feel free to bring it back on track by naming a system that you feel has been underrated (or has under-rated itself) in its intelligence and innovation, and why you think so.

This thread is to name all those games that are quietly competent and humble about it, sometimes even downright under-valued.

Nisarg
 

Darkness

Hand and Eye of Piratecat [Moderator]
Nisarg said:
So, in 13 years the big leap forward in White Wolf's maturity has been that its players should officially pity the lesser mortals who play D&D, instead of downright despise them. Great progress there.
Several White Wolf people play D&D too - or even write d20 products.
 

Nisarg

Banned
Banned
Darkness said:
Several White Wolf people play D&D too - or even write d20 products.

Yes. A couple of them even do it well.

Which makes it all the more hypocritical of White Wolf to maintain that pretentiousness as company policy and foster it among their fanboys.

Nisarg
 

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