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Anyone care to read my 4 page C&C review?
- Thread starter der_kluge
- Start date
Kanegrundar
Explorer
Good review. You stated pretty much every reason I didn't really care for it myself.
Now, if anyone ever claims that you're not thorogh, just point them at that review!
Kane
Now, if anyone ever claims that you're not thorogh, just point them at that review!
Kane
Breakdaddy
First Post
A long read, not that I wasn't warned. Actually exactly what I expected the tone of your review to be, so no surprises there. Doing objective reviews is not always easy, and I'll give you credit for not pretending that yours is completely objective.
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Dragonhelm
Knight of Solamnia
My first impression when reading this review is that it isn't so much of a review as it is an editorial based on a product. In my mind, a review tries to be balanced and impartial to give a fair and balanced account of a product. The first few paragraphs read more like an editorial piece that has a heavy bias to it.
Again, that's my first impression. As the review goes on, though, it sounds more like a regular review, though that editorial bias makes its way in there often enough. Call it an "editorial review" perhaps.
I will say that I agree with you on the attribute modifiers being different from 3e. What about people who play both systems? It happens, and the end result is that they have two different sets of modifiers to learn. It could actually be confusing. The logic escapes me as well, and I feel that it was done just to be different.
On the prime, it does sound a bit quirky in presentation. The alternate would be to say that characters with primes get an extra +6 to their rolls. So, a character with an 18 Wisdom (non-prime) gets a +3 modifier. If you go with the additional +6 model, that becomes a whopping +9! And really, that's just an alternate way of looking at the prime model as presented in the C&C PHB. Primes are a neat way of shaping a character, but the presentation is a bit odd.
On weapons, we've had the discussion before, but I like your ending statement regarding how different types of players will get something different from the weapons. As it stands, C&C's weapons and armor are largely what I've been looking for (minus encumbrance rules), so they work well for me. For someone who wants more of a mechanical differentiation between weapons, it won't work as well.
Overall, a fairly good review, though again it comes across with considerable bias. In-depth in some places, not so much in others (i.e. spells).
There are a few things that I think were missed, though.
First is the "old school feel". Obviously, this isn't for everyone, but it can be a bonus for those who miss the AD&D days. Differing XP charts are a bit more complicated than the 3e single chart method, but they do add to that feel. And certainly, the archetype characters add to that feel as well.
On classes, I would have mentioned two things. First, that most class abilities, save for spells, taper off at 12th level. Second is that HD progression ends and then characters get a straight bonus on HP as they go up in levels. Again, this is an AD&D thing, and not one I was fond of.
Also, I think it would have been good to show what C&C takes from 3e.
When I first got my C&C PHB, I was excited by it and I found a lot of value in it. As time has gone on and I've examined the C&C PHB and looked at the games I want to run, I've discovered that C&C as it is isn't for me. I could house rule it quite a bit and be largely satisfied.
That being said, I do think that C&C has a lot of things I do like, such as weapons/armor/equipment, typical classes (rather than favored classes), good art, and a definitive D&D feel.
To me, the C&C PHB is good to mine ideas from and I've enjoyed the book immensely. I think it is perfect for "old school" gamers, not so much for 3e diehards, and somewhat indifferent for those of us who lie in the middle.
I hope that someday I, too, can find that "perfect system" (at least for me). As it is, I'm houseruling quite a bit between D&D, C&C, and True20.
Again, that's my first impression. As the review goes on, though, it sounds more like a regular review, though that editorial bias makes its way in there often enough. Call it an "editorial review" perhaps.
I will say that I agree with you on the attribute modifiers being different from 3e. What about people who play both systems? It happens, and the end result is that they have two different sets of modifiers to learn. It could actually be confusing. The logic escapes me as well, and I feel that it was done just to be different.
On the prime, it does sound a bit quirky in presentation. The alternate would be to say that characters with primes get an extra +6 to their rolls. So, a character with an 18 Wisdom (non-prime) gets a +3 modifier. If you go with the additional +6 model, that becomes a whopping +9! And really, that's just an alternate way of looking at the prime model as presented in the C&C PHB. Primes are a neat way of shaping a character, but the presentation is a bit odd.
On weapons, we've had the discussion before, but I like your ending statement regarding how different types of players will get something different from the weapons. As it stands, C&C's weapons and armor are largely what I've been looking for (minus encumbrance rules), so they work well for me. For someone who wants more of a mechanical differentiation between weapons, it won't work as well.
Overall, a fairly good review, though again it comes across with considerable bias. In-depth in some places, not so much in others (i.e. spells).
There are a few things that I think were missed, though.
First is the "old school feel". Obviously, this isn't for everyone, but it can be a bonus for those who miss the AD&D days. Differing XP charts are a bit more complicated than the 3e single chart method, but they do add to that feel. And certainly, the archetype characters add to that feel as well.
On classes, I would have mentioned two things. First, that most class abilities, save for spells, taper off at 12th level. Second is that HD progression ends and then characters get a straight bonus on HP as they go up in levels. Again, this is an AD&D thing, and not one I was fond of.
Also, I think it would have been good to show what C&C takes from 3e.
When I first got my C&C PHB, I was excited by it and I found a lot of value in it. As time has gone on and I've examined the C&C PHB and looked at the games I want to run, I've discovered that C&C as it is isn't for me. I could house rule it quite a bit and be largely satisfied.
That being said, I do think that C&C has a lot of things I do like, such as weapons/armor/equipment, typical classes (rather than favored classes), good art, and a definitive D&D feel.
To me, the C&C PHB is good to mine ideas from and I've enjoyed the book immensely. I think it is perfect for "old school" gamers, not so much for 3e diehards, and somewhat indifferent for those of us who lie in the middle.
I hope that someday I, too, can find that "perfect system" (at least for me). As it is, I'm houseruling quite a bit between D&D, C&C, and True20.
trancejeremy
Adventurer
The attribute modifier system in C&C actually seems to be the same in Basic D&D. That is perhaps why. (If they are aiming at D&D players, as opposed to d20/3.x players)
trancejeremy
Adventurer
While I like the idea of C&C, it does seem to have missed the boat for me. It's really too bad that WOTC couldn't/didn't open up the 1e AD&D rules.
I mean, there are 2 pale imitations of it on the market - Hackmaster (a bad joke, IMHO) and C&C (just bad), so obviously there is something of a demand. So why not deliver the real thing?
I mean, there are 2 pale imitations of it on the market - Hackmaster (a bad joke, IMHO) and C&C (just bad), so obviously there is something of a demand. So why not deliver the real thing?
Grazzt
Demon Lord
Interesting/good review...and while the whole prime/non-prime thing may sound a bit clunky, it really isnt. Its actually quite easy. Think in terms of 3E if ya have to... The Challenege Base is 18. If the ability is Prime, ya get a +6 on your check/roll. If it isnt prime, ya dont. That takes care of the 12/18 Challenge Base thing. 
(Which is why in your example, the fighter, Int prime, has an easier time than the ranger of fiddling with the trap; he basically gets a +6 on his check/roll.)
(Which is why in your example, the fighter, Int prime, has an easier time than the ranger of fiddling with the trap; he basically gets a +6 on his check/roll.)
Grazzt
Demon Lord
trancejeremy said:
I believe you are correct. Though, from what Ive heard (from some guys who play C&C around here) is that you can pretty easily use the 3e/3.5 attribute mods without throwing the entire system outta balance. (I personally havent tried that part yet, and have only run a couple of one off games with C&C, but who knows, if it works, might be a bit easier at least for those used to 3e/3.5)
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