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Anyone else getting tired of prestige classes?
- Thread starter Jorath Calar
- Start date
sellars
Explorer
I agree with the above post. I looked in the complete warrior book, and I was very dissapointed. I don't need 50 pages of PrCs, to get that one cool one that is hidden in there somewhere.
Furthermore, I like regional PrCs better than generic. For me, the PrCs have to add something special to a character, or region of land.
Maybe that it is just that the prestige is gone from the prestige classes.
Furthermore, I like regional PrCs better than generic. For me, the PrCs have to add something special to a character, or region of land.
Maybe that it is just that the prestige is gone from the prestige classes.
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Kerrick
First Post
I agree with some of the points on this thread: namely, that there are WAY too many PrCs out there. It seems like everyone and their brother's dog is making them, and 95% of them suck because they don't know what they're doing.
BUT, it's the other 5% that keeps me coming back for more. There are some really cool PrCs out there, and wholly embrace the concept. You could make your character concept strictly through core classes and creative choice of feats, but it's a lot harder than using PrCs. For example, a wizard I play in one campaign started out as the apprentice to a tribal shaman; he worships the cat totem (spirit). As time went along, he discovered a deeper connection with the realm of the spirits, and thus I created the Spiritbinder PrC for him. Likewise, my other character in the same campaign, a psychic warrior (I'm only playing her because the DM wanted me to), kind of evolved into the role of the mage's protector after he got into a spirit duel with another shaman, and she had to fight off a wraith the other shaman summoned. Which led to my creation of the Spiritblade, someone who slays spirits.
I don't really think you should make a PrC simply for someone who belongs to an order (like the "Thieves of the Black Hand"), unless that order has some unique special abilities (like the Red Wizards). PrCs should be "character developers" - methods of increasing the role-play potential of the character, or enabling it to fit the concept the player has for it, not just a power-up, and that's where a vast majority of the PrCs out there fail.
BUT, it's the other 5% that keeps me coming back for more. There are some really cool PrCs out there, and wholly embrace the concept. You could make your character concept strictly through core classes and creative choice of feats, but it's a lot harder than using PrCs. For example, a wizard I play in one campaign started out as the apprentice to a tribal shaman; he worships the cat totem (spirit). As time went along, he discovered a deeper connection with the realm of the spirits, and thus I created the Spiritbinder PrC for him. Likewise, my other character in the same campaign, a psychic warrior (I'm only playing her because the DM wanted me to), kind of evolved into the role of the mage's protector after he got into a spirit duel with another shaman, and she had to fight off a wraith the other shaman summoned. Which led to my creation of the Spiritblade, someone who slays spirits.
I don't really think you should make a PrC simply for someone who belongs to an order (like the "Thieves of the Black Hand"), unless that order has some unique special abilities (like the Red Wizards). PrCs should be "character developers" - methods of increasing the role-play potential of the character, or enabling it to fit the concept the player has for it, not just a power-up, and that's where a vast majority of the PrCs out there fail.
There's No "Prestige" In'em!
I, too, am tired of Prestige Classes... Have been almost since the first time I saw one...
I really do not believe that players want to play a Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/Guild Thief, but that they want a tough thug who is fast, fights two-fisted, has better HP and more Feats, and is backed by the guild...
Now if the base classes allowed for this, there would be no need for so-called Prestige Classes. But they don't, so we're stuck with'em, at least until 4e.
One of the problems with Prestige Classes is that a PC must give up their "Base Class" to become it. Not good, IMHO. This should be fixed, with more class flexibility.
Also, "Prestige Classes" just aren't prestigious. Back in the 1e days, becoming a Knight of the Hart WAS prestigious, because you had to EARN it (the old-fashioned way!)! Nowadays, you have to start preparing at level one (or wait much longer than necessary), and the King can't simply award it to you for "Service to the Crown", because you don't have "the right Feats" and four Ranks of Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), or whatever!
SHEESH!
What I'd like to see:
1) Base Character Classes are flexible enough that you can create a strong, fast, high HP guild thief (with fewer skill ranks) who can Rage, and fight two-fisted, and never have to leave his class (whether that be fighter, rogue, barbarian, or Ranger). Also, PCs WITHOUT "Prestige Classes" should be just as powerful as ones WITH them.
2) Prestige Classes should be prestigious, and earned through in-game play. Having the pre-requisite Feats shouldn't be enough... If you want to know the secrets of lost Atlantis, you should have to gain water-breathing magics, go there, brave the dangers, and make the rolls to learn what you can. When you return (assuming you were at all successful), you should gain some prestige, with the amount depending upon the knowledge you display.
Your Mileage May Vary...
I, too, am tired of Prestige Classes... Have been almost since the first time I saw one...
I really do not believe that players want to play a Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/Guild Thief, but that they want a tough thug who is fast, fights two-fisted, has better HP and more Feats, and is backed by the guild...
Now if the base classes allowed for this, there would be no need for so-called Prestige Classes. But they don't, so we're stuck with'em, at least until 4e.
One of the problems with Prestige Classes is that a PC must give up their "Base Class" to become it. Not good, IMHO. This should be fixed, with more class flexibility.
Also, "Prestige Classes" just aren't prestigious. Back in the 1e days, becoming a Knight of the Hart WAS prestigious, because you had to EARN it (the old-fashioned way!)! Nowadays, you have to start preparing at level one (or wait much longer than necessary), and the King can't simply award it to you for "Service to the Crown", because you don't have "the right Feats" and four Ranks of Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), or whatever!
SHEESH!
What I'd like to see:
1) Base Character Classes are flexible enough that you can create a strong, fast, high HP guild thief (with fewer skill ranks) who can Rage, and fight two-fisted, and never have to leave his class (whether that be fighter, rogue, barbarian, or Ranger). Also, PCs WITHOUT "Prestige Classes" should be just as powerful as ones WITH them.
2) Prestige Classes should be prestigious, and earned through in-game play. Having the pre-requisite Feats shouldn't be enough... If you want to know the secrets of lost Atlantis, you should have to gain water-breathing magics, go there, brave the dangers, and make the rolls to learn what you can. When you return (assuming you were at all successful), you should gain some prestige, with the amount depending upon the knowledge you display.
Your Mileage May Vary...
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I have to say that I agree with the general mood of this thread. There seem way too many PrCs (and also feats!) around now. Moreover, they all seem to be just powerups for the sake of class features rather than having any link to a campaign setting/organization (as was the original concept behind them, IIRC).
In any campaign I run, I hope that PrCs will almost exclusively play a particular role (mostly attached to particular organizations, etc.) in the campaign rather than just being a way to increase a characters power.
Martyn
(The overabundance of feats is even worse IMO!)
In any campaign I run, I hope that PrCs will almost exclusively play a particular role (mostly attached to particular organizations, etc.) in the campaign rather than just being a way to increase a characters power.
Martyn
(The overabundance of feats is even worse IMO!)
Synchronicity
First Post
Warning: engaging [rant mode]. Proceed at your own risk.
I agree that a considerable portion of the prestige classes out there are mindless, flavourless pulp. It's acually got worse in 3.5. I looked at the new DMG, and almost cried. I mean, they say prestige classes should be special, right? They shouldn't have to be *better* than base classes; although these days, they generally are; they should have to be *different*. And then they throw us the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight. I mean, come on, people! Unique abilities? No. Interesting flavour? No. All these classes do is let you be a wizard AND a cleric, or an arcane caster AND a fighter. There's no personality, no originality, no nothing to these classes at all! Even the Arcane Trickster, functionally a rogue/arcane caster, has a few class-specific abilities!
And then they go and create prestige classes which are just damn stupid, like the Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper. I mean, look at the Dweomerkeeper. *How* in the name of the Nine-Headed Serpent of Vhuul did they ever think this was a balanced class? A spell as a supernatural ability up to FIVE time a day?! No SR, no components?! Able to cast one spell of each level spontaneously?! All you need's a bloody cleric of Mystra with the Arcane Schooling regional feat, and you qualify for the class's spellcasting prereqs! Then, you can take the Initiate of Mystra feat, and choose Anyspell as a spell you can cast spontaneously! The mind boggles at such an abuse of power!
As for the Incantatrix...apart from their stupid, stupid powers, look at their ability to apply metamagics to spell trigger items. You could have an Incantatrix 'wandslinger' who never needs to cast spells; he merely throws Twinned Empowered Maximised Quickened Enervations at people from his wands! Sure, he burns them out fast, but hey, he can nuke practically anything! And all he has to do is carry a Wand of True Strike and have Quicken Spell, and he has ten Quickened True Strikes for a cost of 750 gp until Incantatrix 7, where he gets 12 per wand due to his reduced cost of metamagics! A friend of mine's been mentioning relics in combination with this, and though I don't have the Complete Divine yet, if what he's been telling me about relics is true, this gets even sillier. Making items cheaper or for free by giving up spell slots? Sure! Not like I need them, with 6 staves of Zapping Death! I don't even cast spells myself anymore!
[disengaging rant mode]
*sigh* I just wonder what the point is. I don't know what some of the designers are smoking, but a lot of the prestige classes out these days seem flavourless, overpowered, or both. There are notable exceptions. Horizon Walker is interesting, fun, and strong without being overpowered. Divine Disciple (from Players Guide to Faerun) is also a class which has its highlights.
Duellist has some meat to it, though I prefer the Swashbuckler base class from Complete Warrior. Several other PrCs have interesting, unique powers without selling their originality or balance down the river. But a lot of the arcane based prestige classes especially seem either stupidly good or pointless, with no redeeming features.
In summary:
1) Less boring PrCs.
2) less broken PrCs.
would make things considerably better. However, I don't see it happening..and until designers start choosing quality over quantity in PrC design, I get the feeling that our weariness with PrCs will only increase.
Sorry for the ranting. Hope I didn't bother anyone getting that off my chest.
Cheers,
Synchronicity.
I agree that a considerable portion of the prestige classes out there are mindless, flavourless pulp. It's acually got worse in 3.5. I looked at the new DMG, and almost cried. I mean, they say prestige classes should be special, right? They shouldn't have to be *better* than base classes; although these days, they generally are; they should have to be *different*. And then they throw us the Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight. I mean, come on, people! Unique abilities? No. Interesting flavour? No. All these classes do is let you be a wizard AND a cleric, or an arcane caster AND a fighter. There's no personality, no originality, no nothing to these classes at all! Even the Arcane Trickster, functionally a rogue/arcane caster, has a few class-specific abilities!
And then they go and create prestige classes which are just damn stupid, like the Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper. I mean, look at the Dweomerkeeper. *How* in the name of the Nine-Headed Serpent of Vhuul did they ever think this was a balanced class? A spell as a supernatural ability up to FIVE time a day?! No SR, no components?! Able to cast one spell of each level spontaneously?! All you need's a bloody cleric of Mystra with the Arcane Schooling regional feat, and you qualify for the class's spellcasting prereqs! Then, you can take the Initiate of Mystra feat, and choose Anyspell as a spell you can cast spontaneously! The mind boggles at such an abuse of power!
As for the Incantatrix...apart from their stupid, stupid powers, look at their ability to apply metamagics to spell trigger items. You could have an Incantatrix 'wandslinger' who never needs to cast spells; he merely throws Twinned Empowered Maximised Quickened Enervations at people from his wands! Sure, he burns them out fast, but hey, he can nuke practically anything! And all he has to do is carry a Wand of True Strike and have Quicken Spell, and he has ten Quickened True Strikes for a cost of 750 gp until Incantatrix 7, where he gets 12 per wand due to his reduced cost of metamagics! A friend of mine's been mentioning relics in combination with this, and though I don't have the Complete Divine yet, if what he's been telling me about relics is true, this gets even sillier. Making items cheaper or for free by giving up spell slots? Sure! Not like I need them, with 6 staves of Zapping Death! I don't even cast spells myself anymore!
[disengaging rant mode]
*sigh* I just wonder what the point is. I don't know what some of the designers are smoking, but a lot of the prestige classes out these days seem flavourless, overpowered, or both. There are notable exceptions. Horizon Walker is interesting, fun, and strong without being overpowered. Divine Disciple (from Players Guide to Faerun) is also a class which has its highlights.
Duellist has some meat to it, though I prefer the Swashbuckler base class from Complete Warrior. Several other PrCs have interesting, unique powers without selling their originality or balance down the river. But a lot of the arcane based prestige classes especially seem either stupidly good or pointless, with no redeeming features.
In summary:
1) Less boring PrCs.
2) less broken PrCs.
would make things considerably better. However, I don't see it happening..and until designers start choosing quality over quantity in PrC design, I get the feeling that our weariness with PrCs will only increase.
Sorry for the ranting. Hope I didn't bother anyone getting that off my chest.
Cheers,
Synchronicity.
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robberbaron
First Post
PrCs can be good and can enhance a character,
BUT,
the vast majority of the ones I've seen are merely pumping up abilities for no real cost.
They remind me of the character classes that used to be published in White Dwarf and similar mags.
For my 3.5 game I have told the players that I'm not buying any more books so if it is in the SRD or books 1-3 they can have it.
'course if one of them comes up with a good idea it doesn't mean I won't consider it.
BUT,
the vast majority of the ones I've seen are merely pumping up abilities for no real cost.
They remind me of the character classes that used to be published in White Dwarf and similar mags.
For my 3.5 game I have told the players that I'm not buying any more books so if it is in the SRD or books 1-3 they can have it.
'course if one of them comes up with a good idea it doesn't mean I won't consider it.
Arken
Explorer
sellars said:
Actually that's another thing that bugs me hugely I wish they had never called the damn things prestige classes as it tends to enforce a restrictive view the the class as printed has to come with something specific to a setting or organisation. If I need it I can put that in myself specific to the campaign I'm playing. I'd rather that a particular region of wilderness had 20 different variaties of ranger and druid tied to that area with similar but interestingly different abilities rather than saying 'oh he comes from Yarwood (or whatever) I'll give him the Yarwood PrC'. Similarly I'd rather that an assasins guild had at least 4 different assassin type PrCs it makes them less predictable and more fun.
With regions in particular I would emphasise the particular 'hook' of that region by upping the number of prestige classes in that area that dealt with the 'hook. e.g. Whilst the rest of the world might be satisfied with only the 'alienist' to deal with the far realms the area of the world with a rift to the far realms has 3 varieties of alienist and one or two other PrCs keyed to the far realms.
In many ways I see them as more like the 'advanced classes' of d20 modern, they just clarify the focus of the generic character class the person is playing. Obviously the D&D classes are less generic than the d20 modern ones but for me the idea sort of remains the same, if they want to be an investigator then they should be able to have some abilities that make them more of an investigator than every other rogue in the world other than a few extra ranks in spot and search, if they want to be an acid mage they should have certain abilities tied to that that make them better with acid than any other mage rather than them just prefering Melf's Acid Arrow over Scorching Ray.
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