Anyone else moving away from D20?

[Desdichado]

Psion, I think you have a really good point: 3e hasn't quite been out long enough for many DMs to have figured out exactly how much improvisation vs. book-keeping they can get away with. And with the ever-present harping on the balance of the system, many are turned away from trying.

As the system matures (or rather, as our collective experience with it does) I hardly expect to see these kinds of complaints in the future. It'll be just as easy to do NPCs (for example) on the fly as ever.

 

[Psion]

GURPS I've played and run for years and found it *much* lighter on bookkeeping...

Is there a possibilty that you are serious? I mean c'mon... cascading skills, a huge array of advantages and disads (though feats rival it if you use lots of supplements) and 4 different categories of skills costs alone seem like they would make it much more tedious.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I also don't know what the big whoop is about feats. Detractors of d20/3e (like, say, most of Dragonsfoot) point and screech at feats like Donald Sutherland at the end of the remake of Invasion of the Body Snatchers (yeah, I know, an out-of-date reference).

I simply can't see what makes feats so dadblamed awful. I mean, Weapon Focus and weapon Specialization are not any more powerful than their 1e and 2e predecessors; Toughness adds 3 measly hit points; Skill Focus...well, come on, you see my point. But detractors of d20 act like somehow feats are akin to video game power-ups. Let me tell you - if they were video game power-ups, they'd be the lamest power-ups in any video game I can think of. Some will point out something like Whirlwind Attack, but totally disregard the hefty prerequisites, and then act like Whirlwind Attack is is so easily acquired it'll destroy their game.

And that's the key point in much of the critcism - disregard for the cost of feats and skills. It's the same lack of attention to these important details that pervades the worst of the criticism of the Epic Level Handbook. Is it possible that many of these detractors either have never played the game at all, or have given the game a brief, facile read and simply plugged in feats without actually noticing the prereqs? Oftentimes it seems that way.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

This is different from D20 exactly... how?



So... basicly... classes would consist of nothing more than BABs... and spells if you happened to be a spellcaster? Well, yeah, I guess that might simplify things , but... really... that doesn't give you much left.

No mods for power attacks, flanks, charges, fighting defensively, using expertise, using point black shots using the rapid fire feat vs firing rapid fire without being in point blank range (the way mods for arrows vary depending on feats and range is crazy, you should see the sheet my bowman keeps so he doesn't loose track. It's huge!), there is a lot more to factor in that just the roll. Then you have your damage mods...it's more than I want to deal with. If feats were unique to PC classes then it wouldn't be as bad, but I've got to figure them for the monsters too. It's a wargame almost. Gimme fast and loose combat.

As for the classes I'd have to refactor in the abilities that are now given to feats. Why bother when 1e already did it.

I like the base mechanic of d20, but don't like the heaps of crap piled on top of it.

 

[Corinth]

Wow, that's rather bland of you. Feats are the biggest way to distinguish two characters who'd otherwise be indistiguishable; discount them at your peril.

 

[JeffB]

D20's complication for me (that is why I don't want to run it anymore..or at least for the time being) is in it's tactical combat which bogs down as PC levels get higher (and more feats/special abilities kick-in), not to mentione it's near-reliance on miniatures and a grid (which I don't use) for anything but simple combats, as well as some other areas I would like to modify but which throw other systems out of whack( for example, the default "magic level"...when you tinker with this, you screw up the already very delicate CR/EL system, or unbalance the wizard/sorceror when you adjust item creation ).

But I definitely concur with the Col, about feats. I think many people just read the description, and think it's easy to get. Same with no ability score minimums..some of the old grognards (though I am one too) just don't see that , if for example, you don't have a high CHA, you are gonna be a pretty underpowered Paladin. They also don't realize that ALL ability scores now, are more crucial..for example.. A Cleric needs not only a High wisdom, but a High CHA as well.

Feats don't bother me so much when they are transparent during actual play, but many are not transparent during play, especially when it comes to monster feats and "special abilities...improved grab...constriction...how many things undead (for example) are immune to...The special abilites and conditions section of the DMG is a big headache for some.

3E/D20 can be very intimdating to run depending on what kind of players are in your group...especially if you like/need to tinker with it...

Playing the game is easy...

 

[mmadsen]

Plus I don't every have to open a book and see Kuo-Toa monks or such other absurdities.

For the audience at home, 1E had Kuo-Toa monks (called "monitors") -- as well as Kuo-Toa fighter-assassins (called "whips") -- introduced in Shrine of the Kuo-Toa.

 

[Lightfinger]

I play Shadowrun and Champions whenever I can, just to break up the monopoly of time D20 seems to cause me

In fact, I helped run games for FanPro in Shadowrun at both major conventions and played a grand total of ONE D20 game while there...but a vast majority of my money went towards D20 merchandise.

--Lightfinger

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

For the audience at home, 1E had Kuo-Toa monks (called "monitors") -- as well as Kuo-Toa fighter-assassins (called "whips") -- introduced in Shrine of the Kuo-Toa.

No ? Well I take that one back...

When I looked at the RttTOEE and saw a fish monk I was stunned.

 

[The Cardinal]

Is there a possibilty that you are serious? I mean c'mon... cascading skills, a huge array of advantages and disads (though feats rival it if you use lots of supplements) and 4 different categories of skills costs alone seem like they would make it much more tedious.

I'm dead serious about this - as are my players: GURPS only *looks* heavy on numbers, but in play you really don't notice any of it. OTOH D&D3e: you have to constantly keep track of charges in various wands/rings/staffs/etc., people hate the spell-preparation stuff (more bookkeeping), tons of special abilities work on a x per day for y+z rounds principle (so you have to keep track of that too), feats are nice but even fighters don't get enough of these, even with D20 people are always searching for the right type of dice, etc. etc.