Anyone else tired of game mechanic freebies?

[Gradine]

The only problem with themes is that there aren't enough of them yet, and really not enough generic themes. This leads to the problem of someone's character concept not really fitting with any theme. The player might then feel forced to take a theme that doesn't fit or missing out on a free encounter power.

But that's not fully fair, is it? For about a year we only had eight classes, and a meager selection of powers and feats by today's standards. When we get more themes, we'll be less worried about this issue. And until then, the player has two choices: refluff a current theme or theme feature, or sit down with a DM and come up with one together.

We've all been forced to make subobtimal choices that have required massive refluffing or sacrificing a little bit of character concept, especially when all we were playing with were the core books.

As for backgrounds, I absolutely love the idea. I've never felt a person's class should be the sole determining factor for which skills they could train. And there are enough of them around by now that if you can't find one that "fits" it's probably because you're not giving enough thought to your character's backstory.

 

[Zaran]

I actually don't see themes in darksun as power creep. They are more like replacements for the magic items that you will not find. The suggests that the DM uses the Innate Enhancement bonus rules and means less magic items over all.

Noone even mentioned the psionics that every one gets. Of course the wizard's cantrips are better than most of them.

 

[BobTheNob]

Not at all. I'm saying it should be built into the game, not given to the players. For example, the ability to substitute the higher level abilities of the themes works well. Why should they get a freebie out of it? Ditto for background options.

To me, at the end of the day, it really comes down to what the general consensus of your group (under the control of the DM) is willing to include in the game. To me these features arent "given to the players", they are given to the group as a whole to allow or disallow.

Power creep of player vs monster is a non issue, power creep of player compared to player is, and as long as everyone gets access to the same "power up" (i.e. themes) nothing breaks in the game.

If you dont like the freebie, but dont mind the substitutes...make the freebie a level 1 substitute instead. If you dont like themes altogether, dont allow them.

For our group, I as DM think themes are a brilliant idea and the players all like em, so we will use them when we switch to DSUN. For now, Im just hoping they can come up with themes for the Realms

 

[im_robertb]

Power creep of player vs monster is a non issue, power creep of player compared to player is, and as long as everyone gets access to the same "power up" (i.e. themes) nothing breaks in the game.

Power creep of player vs monster is an issue when you're running a premade adventure to save on prepwork. Keep on the Shadowfell is now a much easier adventure than it used to be.

 

[BobTheNob]

Power creep of player vs monster is an issue when you're running a premade adventure to save on prepwork. Keep on the Shadowfell is now a much easier adventure than it used to be.

Touche

I cant argue with that, but I have never been one for sticking with convention either. If I were to place in a freebie and play existing "pre-freebie" modules, I would be tempted to just up them to balance off.

But yes, Older modules will tend to look easier as more party wide freebies make there way into the game

 

[thewok]

I like backgrounds. I've not really delved into the Scales of War backgrounds, but I like to use backgrounds on all my characters. The general ones, at least, are hardly overpowering. You can pick as many backgrounds as you want, but you can only get one benefit. That benefit might be an additional class skill, a +2 bonus to skill checks with a skill, or an extra language. That's not really a huge thing.

I haven't seen themes yet, as I have little interest in Dark Sun.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The power creep is intended, along with the monster power creep in the MM3/DSCC to reduce grind.

How can that be possible when so many other people are saying that the powers are weaker than standard at-will abilities? That would indicate 'no creep'.

It's one of the things I like about posting to ye old En World. Even when the masses disagree with me, it's not like they're always agreeing with each other.

 

[I'm A Banana]

. But if it's needed, make it a core part of the game as opposed to the freebie it becomes latter on.

Especially when those who don't use 'em are penalized by losing out to those who do.

I happen to like them, but I think, in general, you need to expect this to happen over the lifetime of 4e.

4e's model is "constant incremental improvement." Freebie bonuses are going to be constantly added. Everything is core, even stuff that hasn't been released yet, so there's more stuff out there that will be added. If you do not play with the most recent releases, you aren't penalized per se, but you do not have the current "best state" of the rules.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I happen to like them, but I think, in general, you need to expect this to happen over the lifetime of 4e.

4e's model is "constant incremental improvement." Freebie bonuses are going to be constantly added. Everything is core, even stuff that hasn't been released yet, so there's more stuff out there that will be added. If you do not play with the most recent releases, you aren't penalized per se, but you do not have the current "best state" of the rules.

To me, it was this unyeildy rule bloat that helped kill 3e for me. Background feats? Racial substitution levels? Racial levels? Organization substiution levels? Added to PrC from here and new core class here?

At least the core classes seemed to have slowed down in 4e. Almost makes me glad they went the bound to fail PHB method instead of a 'power source' method.

 

[Camelot]

How can that be possible when so many other people are saying that the powers are weaker than standard at-will abilities? That would indicate 'no creep'.

It's one of the things I like about posting to ye old En World. Even when the masses disagree with me, it's not like they're always agreeing with each other.

They're definitely more powerful than your standard at-will power. The Elemental Priest power is 1d10 + mod damage and -2 to attacks and defenses until the end of your next turn, and if you spend a minor action you can create a spirit that grants +1 defenses to your adjacent allies (then you dismiss it to make the aforementioned attack). Even without the minor action thing, that's better than an at-will.