Anyone used UA's spell point variant?

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

I'm considering using a combination of Unearthed Arcana's spell point system and the daily spell list variant in the campaign I'm working on. Ideally, I'd like a system that creates more flexibility than the Vancian system while not giving spellcasters too much power (like, say, Recharge Magic would). The daily spell list part is because of how much I like Arcana Unearthed's (AU. UA. Confused yet?) magic system, which I would port over entirely if I could do it with the core spells. Without getting into too much detail, I find that there's a niche in my world for spellcasters who can cast low-power spells all day long when not out adventuring.

(Note: To head off the inevitable sorcerer vs. wizard debate, I'm scrapping both and making my own arcane caster class which combines elements of both.)

I'd like to know what your experiences have been with the spell point system. I should note that if I decide to go with it (and I'm about 75% there decision-wise) I intend to go full-bore, with new and variant magic items and feats that take advantage of the system. It'll also apply to both divine and arcane casters.

So has it trashed your game or what?

 

[Thanee]

Havn't used it, but it doesn't look very well thought-out, really.

1) The spell points for wizards are higher than what they can normally cast (not including extra spell points needed for damage spells here) and they gain spontaneous casting while not lacking their vast spell knowledge in any way.

2) The spell points for sorcerers is lower than what they can normally cast, yet they gain much less flexibility than the other classes. This makes them obviously completely pointless under that system.

Ok, not going too much into that difference...

3) Evocation is totally screwed, as it is the only school (mostly damage), which does work different (extra cost). Yet, damage spells are not exactly the most powerful, especially later on.

4) One thing the XPH got right (almost ) is, that it is a really bad idea to combine that kind of flexibility with full scaling. Being able to shell out loads of high level spells increases the power of spellcasters dramatically, which further widens any existing gap between them and non-spellcasters. A wizard under that system is easily twice as powerful as a regular wizard.

5) Take a look at the Spirit Shaman to see how it is done right (combining a large spell list with the flexibility of spontaneous casting).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Cinderfall]

We use it.

My group uses it. It works for us pretty well. It's simple and straight forward. As Thanee said it does drastically increase the power of the wizard, which is ok because in our campaign wizards are extremely rare and we are more careful about which spells we allow in the game. There is a downside though - for some spells (primarily damage spells such as fireball, magic missile, and lightningbolt) the cost is increased as the damage is. High damage spells drain your points pretty fast (for example, Haste costs 5 points regardless of level, a 10d6 Fireball costs 10 points). Also, magic missile is no longer the bargain spell it used to be (which doesn't bother me or my group too much). Oh, and the Sorcerer class is pretty redundant. We would probably offer the class a bit more in skills to offset this - should anyone ever decide to play one. We like flexibility and one of my players has said he "doesn't think he could ever go back to the old way." And no, our game group isn't "suddenly" playing a bunch of wizards, we have one - like we would in any game.

To offset the power increase we have banned several spells and modified others (blast area spells, like fireball, have there effect areas halved). Some of the spells banned or altered were done so because they would otherwise be too disruptive to our current campaign setting (Birthright) or have proven to be too disruptive in our previous games. Naturally, the enhanced flexibility works against the PCs when they face an enemy spellcaster and it can also make them even higher priority targets in melee combat.

Overall, we really really like it. It makes spellcasting easier to handle and takes less time to pick spell load-outs (and prep badguys). Hope this helps.

 

[Thanee]

To balance that variant (when using the normal rules, not a restricted spell list, for example), I can think of two approaches:

1) Give an "LA" to primary spellcasters (cleric, druid and wizard +2, sorcerer +1 (?)) in the way, that they get to take a null level at 5th and 10th (they stay at 4th and later 8th respectively, while their ECL increases by one; sorcerers only have to take one at 10th level).

2) Whenever a character takes a level in a non-spellcasting class (all but cleric, druid, sorcerer/wizard), the character can use the Gestalt rules with another such class, but only if at least half the character level (including the new level) consists of non-spellcasting class levels. Bard (?), paladin and ranger are considered non-spellcasting classes for this purpose.

Thus you could either play a spell point wizard or a Gestalt fighter/rogue, for example.

Bye
Thanee

 

[carpedavid]

We use it, along with the fatigue variant (I don't remember what the official name is), and it's working out well. However, I got rid of all arcane magic in this particular campaign, so it's only being used by a Shaman (from OA) currently. He likes it, and I don't see it as having dramatically increased his power.

 

[Rasyr]

Here is another option you could try:

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2002/apr/matrix.html

 

[Tarrasque Wrangler]

Carpedavid, I've considered using that fatigue variant. I like it flavor-wise and it seems to be a good counterpoint to the general buffing-up spellcasters get with the spell point system. The only drawback seems to be how punitive it is at low levels. I think a wizard gets fatigued after casting like 1 1st level spell.

Thanee, I'm aware of how much more the wizard gets out of this system than the sorcerer, that's why (as I mentioned in the OP) I'll be getting rid of both and creating something of a hybrid class I'm tentatively calling the Magus.

 

[Verequus]

Thanee, I'm aware of how much more the wizard gets out of this system than the sorcerer, that's why (as I mentioned in the OP) I'll be getting rid of both and creating something of a hybrid class I'm tentatively calling the Magus.

Magus, eh? Mage is already taken! If you want to see a really good hybridisation of Sorcerer and Wizard, then check out Elements of Magic Revised, where the Mage is detailed. Basically you have a limited number of possiblities, which you can cast on your own, but with spellbooks from other wizards you can memorize all spells, someone bothered to write down once. The only "drawback" is, that you get a full magic system with spell points on top with it, too. Lyceian Arcana, the successor of EoMR, has some more infos on changing the feel to a more core-rules-like one.

 

[Mercule]

We've been using it in our game. There's a Spirit Shaman (that was a fun conversion -- I basically just gave him Druid spell casting after mulling over several options), a Wizard, and a Rogue/Wizard (although, I did let him change that to Warlock recently). I'm also using the "Spontaneous Divine Casters" variant, for more Shamany fun.

So far, the thought seems to be that spell points are weaker than the standard Vancian system -- although I'm not sure I agree. I think that's based on the damage-dealing spells, though, with flexibility being panned. I'd be incredibly interested to hear more specific reasons why people think spell points are more potent than standard rules.

Oh, and a note on Sorcerer and spell points. I agree that the Sorcerer is not an advantage over the Wizard under the UA system. I just dropped the class. Psions fill that role in my campaign.

 

[Thanee]

Thanee, I'm aware of how much more the wizard gets out of this system than the sorcerer, that's why (as I mentioned in the OP) I'll be getting rid of both and creating something of a hybrid class I'm tentatively calling the Magus.

Yep, you said that initially, that's why I put the comment after the first two items.

The point is, that it puts clerics, druids and especially wizards way ahead of their standard power level and thus of all other classes (not just the sorcerer).

You would definitely need some way to balance that huge power up.

Bye
Thanee