AoO, invisibility and spell casting

[RObiN-HoOD]

Ok. Weird situation for me and my group.

I am a spellcaster with improved invisibility. Someone is near me and he has spotted me with spot DC20, so he's aware of my presence, although I am not pin-pointed. I am casting a silenced spell, so no verbal component. He doesn't see me, so the somatic is invisible, does he get AoO?

(please asnswer by the rules only)

 

[Neverwinter Knight]

(please asnswer by the rules only)

Here's my shot:

PHB, p. 122
Threatened Area: You threaten the area into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. ...

The argument is the following:
1. Since the attacker cannot pinpoint you, he cannot make a melee attack against you.
2. Because he cannot make a melee attack against you, he does not threaten you or your area.
3. Because of 2., he does not get an AoO against you.

That sound right???

 

[Petrosian]

Re: Re: AoO, invisibility and spell casting

Ok this assume you are in his threatened area, right? thats 5' in most cases.

I would follow the rules. he gets a listen check to hear you and if he makes it by 20 he pinpoints your hex. he can then AoO the hex with a 50/50 miss chance, no dex bonus etc.

Since you are using SILENT, he does not get the DC0 (or DC-2) listen check vs conversation, and instead gets a fairly normal opposed vs move silently roll. if you moved during this round, and did not move at half speed, you take a -5, iirc.

Silent spell eliminates the chance of hearing the verbal component. it does not eliminate the sounds for moving, drawing your bat guano out, waving your arms around causing you potion flasks to rattle, or even just your breathing. All silent does is avoid the SPEAKING noises, it does not make you automatically inaudible or unable to be heard or magically silenced.

 

[Zenon]

Re: Re: Re: AoO, invisibility and spell casting

Ok this assume you are in his threatened area, right? thats 5' in most cases.

I would follow the rules. he gets a listen check to hear you and if he makes it by 20 he pinpoints your hex. he can then AoO the hex with a 50/50 miss chance, no dex bonus etc.

Since you are using SILENT, he does not get the DC0 (or DC-2) listen check vs conversation, and instead gets a fairly normal opposed vs move silently roll. if you moved during this round, and did not move at half speed, you take a -5, iirc.

Silent spell eliminates the chance of hearing the verbal component. it does not eliminate the sounds for moving, drawing your bat guano out, waving your arms around causing you potion flasks to rattle, or even just your breathing. All silent does is avoid the SPEAKING noises, it does not make you automatically inaudible or unable to be heard or magically silenced.

The only thing I'd do different here is force the Attacker attempting to take the AoO to make a Spellcraft check to realize the spell is being cast after he made a Listen check. After all, everyone makes noise moving around, but the attacker would have to realize that the sounds he's hearing are part of the spell.

PHB, pg 74 Spellcraft (Int, trained only):

DC 15 + spell level = Identify a spell being cast (You must be able to see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components).

If he didn't realize it was a spell, no AoO.

Not every fighter realizes the sound bat guano makes when you get it out of a pouch!

 

[Petrosian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: AoO, invisibility and spell casting

Interesting...

As far as i know, you do not ave to know what is causing the lowering of his guard to get an AoO. All that is required is that you be threatening when the guard is lowered.

Remember, the original post asked for by the rules.

By the rules an AoO occurs when the attacker threatens and the recipient does a provoking action.

it does not require the attacker to know what speific type of action is being done to allow the attack.

if you read the descriptive text, it is all about the recipient lowering his guard.

One way to see it is that all that is happening is a slash that would normally have been blocked is now getting thru because the guard was lowered.

Since spelcraft is a exclusive skill, most fighter types would not have a chance if you require spellcraft to identify that a spell is being cast.

The only thing I'd do different here is force the Attacker attempting to take the AoO to make a Spellcraft check to realize the spell is being cast after he made a Listen check. After all, everyone makes noise moving around, but the attacker would have to realize that the sounds he's hearing are part of the spell.



If he didn't realize it was a spell, no AoO.

Not every fighter realizes the sound bat guano makes when you get it out of a pouch!

 

[HeavyG]

Re: Re: Re: Re: AoO, invisibility and spell casting

the attacker would have to realize that the sounds he's hearing are part of the spell.

If he didn't realize it was a spell, no AoO.

That's a weird situation.

On the one hand, saying your character has a laundry list of "things that make you poke people faster" that he memorized in adventurer school and that he has to realize that a target is spellcasting and then think "Cool ! He's spellcasting so I'll poke him" is kinda absurd. Like Petrosian said, it's much more reasonable, from a role-playing point of view, to say that he's swinging his blade around and that it is the spellcaster's inattention that gets him an attack of opportunity.

On the other hand, even though it makes no sense, roleplaying-wise, the laundry list is exactly what the rules support, because you have a choice between taking an AoO or not (mostly because you have only 1 or at most a few of them) and this implies that your character has to make exactly such a decision.



A reasonable interpretation would be that your character, as a trained combatant, is able to recognize when an opponent lets his guard down and uses that opportunity to strike. This would restrict AoOs to known (or located) targets. But the rules have no such restrictions, IIRC. AFAIK, you can AoO a completely silent, invisible flying guy passing in your threatened area.

Like I said. Weird.

 

[RObiN-HoOD]

Well, thanks for the replies but I still don't quite get it. Any other possible interpretation (by the rules)?

 

[Celtavian]

Re

This is not something the rules specifically cover. It is more a combination of rules.

As a DM, I would call it like this.

If all your mage does it cast silence, and then does not move away from the fighter, but around him, I would give the fighter an AOO with the standard 50% miss penalty plus any modifiers for being deaf because of silence. Most skilled fighters would start swinging at anything around them in such a situation in hopes of drawing blood and pinpointing a target.

If your mage moves away from the fighter while not entering any threatened squares, then I would not give the fighter an AOO. He cannot pinpoint the mage, but he will know the silence spell has moved.

There is no listen check allowed in a silenced area.

Improved invisibility is a one of those spells a DM must arbitrate wisely and fairly. The rules are there, but they are non-specific.

 

[RObiN-HoOD]

Re: Re

If all your mage does it cast silence, and then does not move away from the fighter, but around him, I would give the fighter an AOO with the standard 50% miss penalty plus any modifiers for being deaf because of silence. Most skilled fighters would start swinging at anything around them in such a situation in hopes of drawing blood and pinpointing a target.

I have done exactly this, just forgot to include the deaf modifier. I think this is the best case yet.

Thanks

 

[Neverwinter Knight]

I'd still deny the fighter an AoO if he cannot pinpoint the mage (if you recall, the original post said that the mage was NOT pinpointed).