AoOs and the 5-foot step (Forked Thread: Nerf the spellcasters!)

[Kerrick]

Forked from: Nerf the spellcasters!

This solution could hold in the interim, but I think this problem is a result of the rules of AoO, not necessarily a flaw in the wizard class. Similarly, ranged fighters can do the same action to take a 5' step away from threatening targets and pepper their attacker with missiles. So, I think the final solution should come in the form of adjusting the AoO rules and not penalizing any group of classes because they HAVE to "bend" the rules like this just to function in combat.

I was thinking about this last night. I agree, to a point - given the choice between nerfing the mechanics and nerfing the PCs, you go for the mechanics first.

But, I don't see a way to do it in this case. I'm not totally sure, but I think the 5-foot step was introduced to give PCs a way to get SOME movement in while perfoming a full attack. The problem is that since it's effectively a free action that doesn't provoke AoOs, everyone abuses the hell out of it: Archer? Take a 5-foot step and unload a full attack just out of reach! Spellcaster? Take a 5-foot step and nuke that guy without an AoO! It's frustrating as hell to DMs and players alike, and it's perfectly legal.

There are a few possible solutions:

a) Get rid of the 5-foot step.

b) Rule that making a 5-foot step out of a threatened space provokes an AoO.

c) Give PCs who take a 5-foot step a penalty to their action.

d) Rule that PCs who take a 5-foot step to perform an action can do so, but still provoke an AoO (with a minus to hit because of the distance).

I'm sure you could think up a couple more, but that's what I've got. b) seems like the most viable to me; it follows the general rules for movement and prevents a huge amount of abuse. With the movement/attack rules we came up with, archers now have a viable method of moving and firing without having to rely on the 5-foot step, and anyone can still use the step to close with an enemy and make a full attack. As for spellcasters, I'd rule that if they take damage in the round before spellcasting, they have to make a Concentration check. They can then still make that 5-foot step, but they risk getting bashed and losing their focus.

Edit: Almost forgot... I was playing Oblivion last night; I rely heavily on archery - fire several arrows from distance before the enemies close, then draw the blade - but a few times I would just run backwards while firing. It's hard - really hard. The enemy's closing on you faster than you can retreat, smacking the crap out of you while you're trying to shoot arrows. I was effectively making a 5-foot step backwards and firing. Now, you might say that someone could move laterally and fire... but you'd run into the same problem, really - it's hard. I'd give ranged attacks a -2 penalty for a 5-foot step unless they have Shot on the Run OR unless you only make a single attack. Same thing for moving and attacking in general - it's hard to acquire a target while you're moving; that's why there's a feat for it. Say, -4 each for two attacks and -6 each for three. High Dex mitigates/negates this penalty, and Shot on the Run would eliminate it entirely.

 

[Hawken]

Simple answer:

Keep the 5' step.

1) If you take an action, then make a 5' step, no problem.

2) If you take a 5'step, then take an action; problem. Problem = progressive -2 penalty per attack or -4 penalty (if applicable) to any other action. So, if you do this, then attack twice, your first attack is at -2, your second at -4. If you do this then fumble in your pack for a healing potion, you should make a Spot check with a -4 penalty.

 

[Kerrick]

Yeah, I don't want to get rid of the 5-foot step. I'm thinking that b) might be the best solution, though applying a penalty could work too - even a high-level archer would think twice about a -8 penalty to his last attack. A spellcaster wouldn't even blink at a -4 to Concentration checks, though, especially since a 5-foot step doesn't incur one. Or should it?

 

[Hawken]

It should definitely incur one. I think I mentioned somewhere else that you could/should treat that 5' step and cast as violent or extremely violent motion. Slap the -4 penalty on that and go to town.

Although, after about level 10, or by it, even a DC 24 check isn't too difficult. I'd say make it DC 10 + level of spell + enemy BAB to accurately reflect how dangerous it is to cast a spell under those conditions.

 

[Kerrick]

It should definitely incur one. I think I mentioned somewhere else that you could/should treat that 5' step and cast as violent or extremely violent motion. Slap the -4 penalty on that and go to town.

Yeah, you did. I thought it might be too much, but if you think the same, I'll give it a whirl.

Although, after about level 10, or by it, even a DC 24 check isn't too difficult. I'd say make it DC 10 + level of spell + enemy BAB to accurately reflect how dangerous it is to cast a spell under those conditions.

Definitely. But, uh... what is this Concentration check for? Defensive casting?

 

[Hawken]

But, uh... what is this Concentration check for? Defensive casting?

For the 5' step and cast or for Defensive Casting.

 

[Kerrick]

Ohh, I think I see - if you take a 5-foot step away from an enemy, the Concentration check is DC 10 + BAB + spell level. If you simply take a 5-foot step (no enemies around), it's DC 17. Right?

 

[Hawken]

I think that's it.

Defensive Casting = Concentration check. DC = 10 + spell level + BAB.

Cast spell, then 5' step = no check.

5' step, then cast = Concentration check. DC = 10 + spell level + enemy BAB + (-4 penalty for violent/very violent movement). This is presuming the caster is being threatened by a melee opponent. If not, then there is no BAB to factor in to the DC.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

The 4E solution to this is this: you have a move action. You can use it to either:
1) move your base move, provoking AoOs as normal or
2) move one square as a shift, which does NOT provoke AoOs

But, if characters can do whatever as a standard action (like, say, cast a spell or use a Manyshot attack), they could shift before that as there move action before doing so.

I think this is fair. Is the feeling from other people that this shouldn't happen? Is a -2, or -2 per attack, or -5 penalty fair; how would this affect spell DCs?

 

[Sadrik]

Make full attack a standard action and make 5' step a move action and I think you have something.

Basically giving everyone pounce seems acceptable at upper levels. It is too sub optimal to move and attack and the game should be more fluid than 5' + full attack. It is like everyone is a dwarven defender...

As to should archers and spell casters be able to 5' step and shoot? I say yes why not.