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TSR Appendix N Discussion

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Nope.

What was his hypothesis?
Pretty complex, but basically that fiction thwt introduces unreality and takes it seriously elicits an excitement in many people that helps reinvigorate their view of reality itself amd provide major psychological fulfillment. Here's an essay he wrote, that opens up with an interesting commentary on only trusting criticism from a criticism who likes the type of thing in question (odd soiece for thw article, not an endorsement, juat wherw I could find it on Google):

"Of the articles I have read on the subject (and I expect I have missed many) I do not find that I can make any use. For one thing, most were not very well informed. For another, many were by people who clearly hated the kind they wrote about. It is very dangerous to write about a kind you hate. Hatred obscures all distinctions. I don’t like detective stories and therefore all detective stories look much alike to me: if I wrote about them I should therefore infallibly write drivel. Criticism of kinds, as distinct from criticism of works, cannot of course be avoided: I shall be driven to criticize one sub-species of science fiction myself. But it is, I think, the most subjective and least reliable type of criticism. Above all, it should not masquerade as criticism of individual works. Many reviews are useless because, while purporting to condemn the book, they only reveal the reviewer's dislike of the kind to which it belongs. Let bad tragedies be censured by those who love tragedy, and bad detective stories by those who love the detective story. Then we shall learn their real faults. Otherwise we shall find epics blamed for not being novels, farces for not being high comedies, novels by James for lacking the swift action of Smollett. Who wants to hear a particular claret abused by a fanatical teetotaller, or a particular woman by a confirmed misogynist?"

And here's the major money quote point from this article:

"In all these [types of Sci-Fi/Fantasy] the impossibility is, as I have said, a postulate, something to be granted before the story gets going. Within that frame we inhabit the known world and are as realistic as anyone else. But in the next type (and the last I shall deal with) the marvelous is in the grain of the whole work. We are, throughout, in another world. What makes that world valuable is not, of course, mere multiplication of the marvelous either for comic effect (as in Baron Munchausen and sometimes in Ariosto and Boiardo) or for mere astonishment (as, I think, in the worst of the Arabian Nights or in some children's stories), but its quality, its flavor. If good novels are comments on life, good stories of this sort (which are very much rarer) are actual additions to life; they give, like certain rare dreams, sensations we never had before, and enlarge our conception of the range of possible experience. Hence the difficulty of discussing them at all with those who refuse to be taken out of what they call `real life'—which means, perhaps, the groove through some far wider area of possible experience to which our senses and our biological, social, or economic interests usually confine us—or, if taken, can see nothing outside it but aching boredom or sickening monstrosity. They shudder and ask to go home. Specimens of this kind, at its best, will never be common."

 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Heh. Tell me about it. I LOVED Thomas Covenant when I first read it. Devoured the books. All sorts of stuff stuck with me over the years and my view of Monks are STILL based on Cords.

Then I reread Lord Foul's Bane a few months ago. Holy crap was it boring. I realized I was 2/3rds through the book before he even arrived in The Land. SO MUCH EXPOSITION. SO MUCH SETTING DUMP. Gack. I couldn't even get through it.
Man, I was traumatized by Lord Foul's bane, something fierce.
 

Probably not.

Three Hearts and Three Lions was first published in novella form in 1953, prior to the publication of Lord of the Rings.

Now, you might think that maybe Anderson got it from The Hobbit ... but while it was published in 1937, and it was a decent success, it was marketed as a children's book and wasn't the smash success we think of today. It wasn't until after LOTR and, especially, the 60s that the cult of Tolkien really started.

So... maybe, but probably not. Unless someone knows more about Anderson's reading habits in the early 50s.


ETA- ninja'd by Cadence.
Might be worth adding that elves and dwarves as portrayed in The Hobbit are really quite different to the elves and dwarves portrayed in The Lord of the Rings.
 



The Celtic Revival is where most of modern views on druids stem from. There’s very little that’s historically attested to and what is there is from the Romans, not the druids themselves, as said by others. No written records and all that.

The Celtic Revival gave us things like modern druidry (yes, that’s really what it’s called), mostly based on the forgeries of Edward Williams, aka this guy…


What we actually know about druids is a short paragraph of text, no more.
The Wicker Man is the most accurate portrayal of the real druidic religion!
 

Pretty complex, but basically that fiction thwt introduces unreality and takes it seriously elicits an excitement in many people that helps reinvigorate their view of reality itself amd provide major psychological fulfillment. Here's an essay he wrote, that opens up with an interesting commentary on only trusting criticism from a criticism who likes the type of thing in question (odd soiece for thw article, not an endorsement, juat wherw I could find it on Google):

"Of the articles I have read on the subject (and I expect I have missed many) I do not find that I can make any use. For one thing, most were not very well informed. For another, many were by people who clearly hated the kind they wrote about. It is very dangerous to write about a kind you hate. Hatred obscures all distinctions. I don’t like detective stories and therefore all detective stories look much alike to me: if I wrote about them I should therefore infallibly write drivel. Criticism of kinds, as distinct from criticism of works, cannot of course be avoided: I shall be driven to criticize one sub-species of science fiction myself. But it is, I think, the most subjective and least reliable type of criticism. Above all, it should not masquerade as criticism of individual works. Many reviews are useless because, while purporting to condemn the book, they only reveal the reviewer's dislike of the kind to which it belongs. Let bad tragedies be censured by those who love tragedy, and bad detective stories by those who love the detective story. Then we shall learn their real faults. Otherwise we shall find epics blamed for not being novels, farces for not being high comedies, novels by James for lacking the swift action of Smollett. Who wants to hear a particular claret abused by a fanatical teetotaller, or a particular woman by a confirmed misogynist?"

And here's the major money quote point from this article:

"In all these [types of Sci-Fi/Fantasy] the impossibility is, as I have said, a postulate, something to be granted before the story gets going. Within that frame we inhabit the known world and are as realistic as anyone else. But in the next type (and the last I shall deal with) the marvelous is in the grain of the whole work. We are, throughout, in another world. What makes that world valuable is not, of course, mere multiplication of the marvelous either for comic effect (as in Baron Munchausen and sometimes in Ariosto and Boiardo) or for mere astonishment (as, I think, in the worst of the Arabian Nights or in some children's stories), but its quality, its flavor. If good novels are comments on life, good stories of this sort (which are very much rarer) are actual additions to life; they give, like certain rare dreams, sensations we never had before, and enlarge our conception of the range of possible experience. Hence the difficulty of discussing them at all with those who refuse to be taken out of what they call `real life'—which means, perhaps, the groove through some far wider area of possible experience to which our senses and our biological, social, or economic interests usually confine us—or, if taken, can see nothing outside it but aching boredom or sickening monstrosity. They shudder and ask to go home. Specimens of this kind, at its best, will never be common."

I've only skimmed the essay, but Lewis seems to be overlooking the role of Science Fiction as warning. And thus the whole "dystopian" sub-genre, which we know was already present at the time - e.g. H.G. Wells, "The Time Machine". Not saying he is wrong, just that he is not seeing the whole picture. Science fiction can show us things we want to exist, but it can also show us things we don't.
 

teitan

Legend
In all fairness, 3H&3L came out decades after Tolkien (Toll-Keen ;) ) so it is entirely plausible elves and dwarves in that book were inspired by Tolkien.
This is inaccurate. 3H & 3L was 1953 as a novella in Fantasy & Science Fiction, expanded in 1961. LOTR was released in 1954-1955. The Hobbit was 1937. The 1961 expansion does have references to LOTR in it, Mirkwood and Wargs but the elves were influenced by Oberon and the Faerie, their iron allergy etc and the dwarf is more strongly Germanic than Tolkien’s dwarves. The references are more likely there as a wink and a nudge as Anderson’s work is Charlemagne and Arthurian romance.

Ninja Ed by others!!!
 



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