TSR Appendix N Discussion

[EzekielRaiden]

Tolkien would have been aware of the elves in Sir Orfeo. Who are beautiful, human-sized fae.

But they aren't called elves. That's the key thing here. "Elf" meant a tiny little sprite thing until Tolkien came along. Prior to Tolkien, "elf" did not mean what it means today. Prior to Tolkien, "orc" wasn't even a word people used in Middle English, let alone Modern. Prior to Tolkien, the word "warg" did not even exist. Dwarves are more complicated, as sometimes they are more people-like, but most of the time they were people-shaped plot devices prior to Tolkien (which isn't a knock against them, plot devices are important writing tools, but they rarely rise to the level of being characters in their own right.) Etc.

I'm not saying he invented the concept of "pretty otherworldly human-like being," because that would be trivially obviously a really stupid thing to say. What I'm saying is, if we're declaring "Poul Anderson invented the idea of 'elf' as D&D uses it," that seems to be contradicted by Tolkien having published his initial work years earlier. That is, according to Wikipedia, Three Hearts and Three Lions comes from expanding a 1953 novella Anderson wrote for Fantasy & Science Fiction Magazine, so the core ideas predate the publication of The Lord of the Rings, but were still nearly 20 years after the publication of The Hobbit. With the in-text references to words Tolkien himself coined, it's impossible to argue that Anderson wasn't influenced by Tolkien.

Anderson built on the idea of what "elf" meant, that was developed by Tolkien. Tolkien rooted his elves partially in the Old English tradition of fae beings, though that is not the only influence. Elements specific to his construction--that elves are extremely long-lived but still somewhat mortal, that they are innately magical without strictly trying (hence the elf race-as-class is a fighter/mage), that they pine for a lost period of greatness from which their culture has fallen into decline, etc.--linger on even today, despite the complete removal of some of the reason for these features. (There is no Valinor for D&D Elves to depart to, but if you look at other universes beyond just D&D, you'll find nearly every version of elf, e.g. the Mer of Elder Scrolls, the various subspecies of Elf in World of Warcraft, and others besides, you'll find there's almost always a lost, glorious homeland or a long-ago fallen empire tucked away in their mythos.)

 

[teitan]

Given The Hobbit was '37 and LotR was '54-'55, while Three Hearts and Three Lions was '61, I think it's still accurate to trace much of what these things are back to Tolkien.

Particularly because Three Hearts and Three Lions has references to "Mirkwood" and (especially) "wargs," a term Tolkien invented by crossing two ancient words (Old Norse vargr and Old English wearh) which had related meanings. It may be the case that Anderson's re-adaptation of Tolkien's ideas are key to their adoption into D&D as we understand it today, but they're just that, adaptations, from the Tolkien original. Elves as human-size, beautiful fae people are still Tolkien's creation--but, like any great idea, it quickly grew beyond the limits of its creator's work.

Tolkien, one might say, created the crossbreed. Anderson ensured that that crossbreed did not remain only on a few orchards, but spread far and wide. And now we all get to enjoy its sweet taste.

3H & 3L was 1953, expanded in '61 and added the references.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Really?

You don't have PHB races? Your humanoids aren't drawn from the Monster Manual? The equipment the characters are carrying is entirely new and never seen before?

In 1974, you did have to kinda explain the difference between an orc and a goblin. What the heck was a cleric? And no one probably knew what a troll was. Now? While there might be some specifics that genre readers won't know, they are probably genre savvy enough to know most of it.

That is the normal everyday world for D&D characters and players. My adventures rarely spend much time there (the only orcs and goblins are PCs). That's the principle of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. GenericFantasyland is "the real world", and normal Genericfantasyfolk are plunged into an alien world of robots and ray guns.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

3H & 3L was 1953, expanded in '61 and added the references.

And, as I said, it contains references to "Mirkwood" and "wargs." Which were published with The Hobbit. In 1937. The former, perhaps, could have been a similar coinage--it's not like "mirk" (an archaic spelling of "murk") and "wood" are uncommon words. "Warg," on the other hand, was a pure invention by Tolkien, rooted in his knowledge of Old Norse and Old English. It is simply untenable to argue that Anderson did not get the latter from Tolkien, and thus almost surely the former, and many other things besides, as well.

 

[Hussar]

That is the normal everyday world for D&D characters and players. My adventures rarely spend much time there (the only orcs and goblins are PCs). That's the principle of Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. GenericFantasyland is "the real world", and normal Genericfantasyfolk are plunged into an alien world of robots and ray guns.

But, that's the point. You don't have to explain to the players what a robot or a ray gun is. All of this is pretty well trodden material to anyone who is familiar with the genre. Now, there are some specific D&Disms that might trip people up - color coded dragons for example. But, again, the idea of dragon - big winged lizard with a breath weapon - isn't something that isn't familiar to pretty much anyone. Very, very few people would imagine something the size of a crocodile if you say they meet a dragon.

Nothing in Expedition to Barrier Peaks would be even remotely considered new or unique today. Sure, it was back then. But, back then, very few people were very genre savvy because the genre was so minuscule.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Separately from the above, I have been thinking about what might go in "my" Appendix N. It...wouldn't really be the same kind of thing. Not a "you should digest these pieces of media to understand what's going on," but rather..."these are what shaped how I do things, and why."

It's a bit more eclectic than the original Appendix N, which was mostly literature, and much of it from the foundations of the science-fiction and fantasy genre. But it seems a worthwhile thing, to consider the kinds of media that fed into...how I do not just D&D, but roleplaying in general.

In no particular order:
Babylon 5 (TV), J. Michael Straczynski
Star Trek: the Original Series, Next Generation, and Deep Space Nine (TV), many creators, but originally, Gene Roddenberry
The Lord of the Rings (books), JRR Tolkien
Indiana Jones (films and TV), George Lucas
King's Quest and Space Quest series (video games), Roberta Williams, Scott Murphy, and Mark Crowe
Sabriel, Lirael, and Abhorsen (books), Garth Nix
Doctor Who (TV), many creators
Star Wars (films), George Lucas
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (books, film, etc.), Douglas Adams
Knights of the Old Republic II (video game), Obsidian Entertainment
The Bible (the Book), many creators (and one Creator!)
The Tempest (book, play), William Shakespeare -- though honestly several other bits qualify too
The Iliad and Odyssey (books), Homer
Avatar: the Last Airbender (TV), Michael Dante DiMartino and Bryan Konietzko
A Princess of Mars (book), Edgar Rice Burroughs (though TBH I read it when I was very young so I barely remember it)
Conan the Barbarian (film; I haven't read much of the written works), originally Robert E. Howard
Of all things, Heavy Metal (film), specifically the final segment regarding Taarna*, not sure who credit goes to there
Below the Root series (books), Zilpha Keatley Snyder
The Left Hand of Darkness (book), Ursula K. Le Guin
The Lathe of Heaven (book, TV movie), Ursula K. Le Guin
The Chronicles of Narnia (books), C.S. Lewis
Dragonriders of Pern (books), Anne McCaffrey
The Seven Voyages of Sinbad the Sailor (book), unclear original authorship (and the related, but distinct, Thousand and One Nights)
The Foundation and robots stories (books), Isaac Asimov
I Sing the Body Electric (short story), Ray Bradbury
Babar (TV), adapted from the works of Jean de Brunhoff
Rupert (TV), the 1990s series, adapted from the works of Mary Tourtel
The collected works of Beatrix Potter (books)
The Sherlock Holmes stories (books), Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

There's probably more I'm forgetting. All these things, over the years, have been inspirational to me. Some are on the darker side, but many lean toward hope and the potential for better things, if we but strive to make it happen. It's part of why I don't really have a lot of patience for much fiction today. It's all a race to the bottom, a rejection of the possibility of moral exemplars and thus a world where no one bothers trying to be good. I don't shy away from dark or horrible things, of course, I just...prefer fiction where it is genuinely possible for good to win, albeit perhaps with mighty struggle along the way.

*My father showed this to me as a very young child, roughly four or five years old. Given the graphic content, my mother was pissed. She was, however, somewhat mollified when he told her that, afterward, we had discussed the film and I said to him, "Daddy, I know the difference between good and evil." He was rather surprised, and said, "What is that?" "Evil would never sacrifice itself for other people." So...yeah. As weird and dark as it is--stuff I'm usually not into--it left an impression.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

But, that's the point. You don't have to explain to the players what a robot or a ray gun is.

But you do to the characters. And a lot of the writing in Barrier Peaks is designed to obfuscate player metagame knowledge.

When dealing with any kind of portal fiction, you have to consider just what is your baseline normal? These days the early 20th century middle class English world of Bilbo and the Pevensie children is more alien to many readers than the Fantasylands they visit.

 

[Hussar]

But you do to the characters. And a lot of the writing in Barrier Peaks is designed to obfuscate player metagame knowledge.

When dealing with any kind of portal fiction, you have to consider just what is your baseline normal? These days the early 20th century middle class English world of Bilbo and the Pevensie children is more alien to many readers than the Fantasylands they visit.

Heh. There’s a fair bit of truth there.

But I suspect we’re approaching this from very different directions.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

But you do to the characters. And a lot of the writing in Barrier Peaks is designed to obfuscate player metagame knowledge.

When dealing with any kind of portal fiction, you have to consider just what is your baseline normal? These days the early 20th century middle class English world of Bilbo and the Pevensie children is more alien to many readers than the Fantasylands they visit.

I don't think the Pevensies are that out of place, but Digory and Polly are. The latter grew up before electricity was a thing, when horses were still the primary means of getting about London. Without the benefit of visuals, that can be hard to grok. (I say this 'cause the Granada TV version of Sherlock Holmes makes it seem perfectly reasonable.) There's a reason Victorian aesthetic has heavily shifted toward steampunk or gaslamp fantasy; it's far enough out of context to be genuinely fairy-tale-like. But the Blitz? We literally are seeing that right now in Ukraine. Sure, they don't have computers, but going on a camping trip will do that, and visiting a fancy mansion in the country isn't far off from an extended camping trip with better beds (and better bathrooms.)

Give it another few decades, however, and yeah I can see it even for the Pevensies. When most folks no longer remember what it was like for most people to not have cell phones or Internet access, it'll feel really weird to see stories built when "computer" still meant a person who performed calculations. My dad, for example, was born while the series was being written, and while I had computers at home, most of the people I knew in grade school did not. It was only in middle school when everyone started having computers of their own and the Internet started its meteoric rise. I was taught (briefly) how to use a paper card catalogue, knowledge I never actually needed to put to use, and actually did occasionally look things up in a paper dictionary and a full (IIRC 23-volume?) New World Encyclopedia my parents owned.

But now, the youngins that are just about to enter adulthood? They've never known anything but a world with YouTube and Reddit and MMOs and smartphones and MP3 players. Their children won't even know what a video tape is, nor why we call cinematography "film" when it's all digital (or whatever comes after digital, who knows these days.)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I don't think the Pevensies are that out of place, but Digory and Polly are.

It's notable that the movies clearly establish the Pevensies in a historical context - WW2 - which is still somewhat familiar to most people. That's not spelled out in the novels. It's just "the present day".

The Magician's Nephew was a prequel, and thus was the only one of the series actually set "in the past".

But I'm old enough to remember horses pulling delivery vehicles on the streets of Liverpool, it's not as long ago as it seems.