Arcane Spell Failure as a Spellcraft Check?

[Sylrae]

Has anyone changed Arcane spell failure to be a spellcraft skill check? I was thinking maybe instead of flat % of failure those flat chances could somehow be translated to skill DCs.

I was also thinking of factoring in weight of carried items. So if you're carrying too much you start having a higher DC. I can see PC casters dropping their pack on the ground to lower the DC, but that introduces new ideas, like the goblins trying to run off with their bag *evil smirk*

What do people think of this general Idea? any advice on the DCs?

Edit: I'm thinking Spellcraft using Dex instead of Int.

 

[Hawken]

The only problem with this is that a wizard could become Spellcraft focused and then walk around in (mithril) full plate armor and have his modifiers so high he doesn't even need to make a check.

I would use an encumbrance modifier (light, medium or heavy load), not weight as that just reinforces accounting practices by having to calculate every last coin, and every last fishhook. But, then, you still have the problem of wizards running around in full plate willy nilly.

Skills could be too easily abused. I'd try a Caster Level check. Maybe start the DC off at 15 for light armor, 20 for medium and 25 for heavy armors. Add an extra +3 to the DC for each stage of encumbrance (light, medium, heavy loads).

And then, you could create items around this that would give bonuses to the caster level checks so that casters could get away with wearing armor, but they'd have to invest in it.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

DC scales, Pathfinder & swift action for -20%

Rather than Hawken's idea of Spellcraft DCs based off of armor Tiers (light, medium, heavy), I'd vote for a system where the DCs are directly based off the arcane spell failure percentage. A high DC scale could be % as a DC (so 25% arcane spell failure means a DC 25 spellcraft check), low DC scale might be 1DC per 5% of the arcane spell failure (as it's always in 5% chunks) but that would yield DCs like 2, 4, 5, maybe 7 or 8. We could a flat rate to these as well: maybe 10 base, then add whatever.

Would asking someone to make a DC 35 spellcraft check for fullplate be so bad (more likely, a DC 25 spellcraft because it's Mithril Fullplate)? That sounds on par. I light that mages would consider defense a bit, both starting off at lower levels and also higher level defensive min-maxing. A Wizard opting for Studded Leather seems fine to me for DC 15 checks seems fine to me. By the time thoose DCs because easy/automatic, the AC bonus that armor grants isn't far off from getting bracers of armor.

I know Pathfinder is another topic, but did you guys see their system? Once you have 3 caster level and then 7 caster level (I think), you can take these two feats. The first one reduces arcane spell failure by 10% and then the second upgrade feat brings it to 20% reduction. But they are a swift action to activate, so you have to have to spend the two feats and then still every round you want to cast you spend your swift action to get the -20%.

If it was just a spellcraft check, then Skill Focus: Spellcraft and some of those +2/+2 skill feats might become mighty interesting for both speced casters and hybrid gish builds.

Sylrae, I've had a similar idea as you before by giving different items, loads, etc, cumulative penalties... but I had originally envisioned added armor check penalties rather than arcane spell failure. I suppose it could be both. I had thought that things like armor, shields, heavier loads, big clumsy items, but maybe even two-handed weapons or moving too swiftly or as negative effect of spell or poor terrain, these penalties stack up. Then, there's a chart somewhere about added negative effects such an amount of armor check might give, something like...
ARMOR CHECK______ ADDED PENALTY
-3 ........................... +10% arcane spell failure
-6 ........................... -1/4 speed
-9 ........................... no 5ft step allowed
-12 ......................... +20% arcane spell failure (replaces)
-15 ......................... -1/2 speed (replaces)
-18 ......................... -2 reflex saves
-21 ......................... +30% arcane spell failure (replaces)
-24 ......................... -3/4 speed (replaces)

Maybe the "arcane" part of Arcane Spell Failure could be changed and it could be used in more situation to be a broader aggregate of encumberence. % chance to misuse a scroll, or activate a magic item, or the target automatically saves against the spell effect, or chance for a magic item enhancement to not work when wield/worn by the character. Or derive spell failure off of armor check penalty and say arcane casters have spell failure equal to their armor check penalty per 5%, so -4 armor check causes 20% spell failure for arcanists.

Oh, and this is my first post on EN world. I think I may have been a member some years ago and let it wane. I'm really excited to find a community of 3.5 reivisionist because that's exactly how I feel.

To Summarize: I think a spellcraft check equal to the arcane spell failure % is fine. If they succeed, cast as normal. If they don't make the DC, the spell fizzled and the spell/slot is gone.

 

[Sadrik]

I would like this better if it was a simple CL check. A CL + stat check is what I use for concentration. I can see this also being the case with armor. So, something like (CL +stat vs. 10 + ASF%/5) would work.

So 5th level wizard wearing leather armor would be CL 5 + (18 INT) +4 = +9 vs. DC of 10 + (leather 10%/5 = 2) 2 =12 the wizard would need a 3 or better to be successful.

And of course if they were not proficient in the armor they would apply the armor check penalty to the roll.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

standardized existing rules, not many different unique rolls/checks

I prefer the idea of a skill check of some kind to some new or unique kind of check. So, from my stance, this whole other thing called arcane spell failure or this caster level in armor check aren't the way to go. My reasons come down to unilateralness and standardization of bonuses and similar rules, rather than many different and un-commutable rules and types of rolls/check to make. For that reason, I'd much prefer something like:
- Concentration skill check (for any caster)
- Spellcraft skill check (for any caster)
- Know: Arcana skill check (for arcane casters)
- Know: Religion skill check (for "godly" divine casters, like Cleric or Paly)
- Know: Nature skill check (for "naturey" divine casters, like Druid or Ranger)

Again, I don't like having different, unique, used only for this situation types checks. So I would NOT condone using things like:
- % based chance of failure requiring a % check (as ASF currently is)
- caster level check

 

[Sadrik]

CL "Caster Level" checks are not unique.
Arcane Spell Failure basically gives you a -1 per 5% of the armor's ASF to CL checks.

Basically the only change here is removing the skill check and moving it to a CL check, I use all the standard concentration DCs.

 

[Kerrick]

ASF is a stupid rule. The only reason it's still around is because it's a sacred cow.

Now that that's out of the way, here's what I did: I revised the armor system.
There were several things about it that were really dumb/made no sense: Max Dex (penalizes high-Dex characters and forces them to go with light armor); ASF (sure - let's screw the mages but let clerics cast in heavy armor); speed reduction (WTF? You can move perfectly well in heavy armor at a walk. I know, because I've seen people doing it.)

So, I changed it all around:

* Max Dex became a Dex penalty, so high-Dex PCs can wear heavy armor and still get some benefit from their Dex;

* ASF became a Concentration penalty, which adds to the DC when you make Concentration checks, and applies anytime you're wearing armor you're not proficient with and try to cast a spell (this applies for ALL classes, not just mages);

Speed reduction became max speed. You can move normally in heavy armor, but you can't run very fast in it.

The one weak point in this system (if you can really call it that) is that a wizard could get proficiency in heavy armor and cast spells without penalty... but he'd have to blow three feats to do it.

Trailblazer substituted CL checks for all Concentration checks, which is a nice rule. They conveniently ignored the fact that Concentration is also used for some skills that require focus, but since no one ever uses that anyway, it's not much of a loss.

 

[Sadrik]

Those all seem like reasonable changes.

I do like CL checks instead of concentration skill checks, for the single fact that it is a skill sink for a caster. It should be a class feature that they cast spells in combat... my goodness.

 

[Bladesinger_Boy]

Actually, Caster level check doesn't seem like that bad of a solution.

Would it be too overpowering if we just removed arcane spell failure? I mean, the arcane caster classes still have no armor profs, so you either need to multiclass or spend feats to use armor. Is this just totally nutty? Others have made the point that is a sacred cow and here out of habit. A good idea and some added simplicity (removed unneeded complexity).