Arcane Thesis dilemma

[Queranil]

Alright, so a character has Arcane Thesis feat (PH2) applied for his Cone of Cold spell.
Is he allowed to freely apply any metamagic feat with a +1 adjustment and still cast it as a level 5 (e.g. sculpt, still, flash frost etc all for +0) or would the total adjustment be lowered by 1 (sculpt and flash frost for a total of +1)?

I would like (if possible) any references to the rules or texts that adress this.

Thanks!

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Alright, so a character has Arcane Thesis feat (PH2) applied for his Cone of Cold spell.
Is he allowed to freely apply any metamagic feat with a +1 adjustment and still cast it as a level 5 (e.g. sculpt, still, flash frost etc all for +0) or would the total adjustment be lowered by 1 (sculpt and flash frost for a total of +1)?

I would like (if possible) any references to the rules or texts that adress this.

Thanks!

As per the text of the feat and the errata, Arcane Thesis reduces each feat's adjustment by -1 (even +0 feats) so long as the final level is at least the spell's original level. So yes, he could use any number of +1 metamagics and keep it in the same slot, but any number of +0s wouldn't bring a 5th-level spell to a 4th-level spell.

 

[nonsi256]

As per the text of the feat and the errata, Arcane Thesis reduces each feat's adjustment by -1 (even +0 feats) so long as the final level is at least the spell's original level. So yes, he could use any number of +1 metamagics and keep it in the same slot, but any number of +0s wouldn't bring a 5th-level spell to a 4th-level spell.

While the RAW say you can, it would be insane to allow it.
I once saw Arcane Thesis being manipulated to elevate a 1st level spell into an insane power.
The spell was eventually cast as a 9th level spell, but involving a total of 8 or more metamagic feats (don't remember the exact details), it became an auto-win spell.

 

[Queranil]

My point exactly. So what would a reasonable solution be? To allow up to two +1 metamagic feats to be ignored and 'pay' for the rest?

 

[Dandu]

I once saw Arcane Thesis being manipulated to elevate a 1st level spell into an insane power.
The spell was eventually cast as a 9th level spell, but involving a total of 8 or more metamagic feats (don't remember the exact details), it became an auto-win spell.

It was cast as a 6th level spell.

 

[kitcik]

"Spells aren't broken. People break spells. And spells break people."

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

While the RAW say you can, it would be insane to allow it.
I once saw Arcane Thesis being manipulated to elevate a 1st level spell into an insane power.
The spell was eventually cast as a 9th level spell, but involving a total of 8 or more metamagic feats (don't remember the exact details), it became an auto-win spell.

It's insane if someone stacks metamagic onto the best spells, less so if they take a sub-par spell and boost that into the stratosphere. For instance, a maximized empowered twinned repeated echoing [other stuff] summon monster IX can get you a lot of minions in a few rounds (like 22+2d4 bone devils) but isn't really going to break anything since they're nowhere near level-appropriate, and stacking a ton of metamagic to make an unreasonably-powerful fireball just deals out an amount of damage comparable to an unreasonably-powerful martial character of similar level (240+20d6 damage from a maximized empowered twinned energy-admixed [other stuff] fireball, vs. 10d6+290 from a 20th level fighter/barbarian/frenzied berserker with Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a furious valorous speed weapon, and it can easily go higher) but more limited in times per day.

DMs should find out what a player wants to do with metamagic reducers before banning them out of hand, as in many cases Arcane Thesis is okay because the metamagics used with them are over-costed to begin with. The example cone of cold is spending at least 3 feats to deal up to 15d6+10 cold damage plus slipperiness in one of several areas, more feats if he also wants to Silent and Still and such. If he were to instead spend those feats on Sculpt Spell, Empower Spell, and Arcane Thesis (Fireball), he could do 15d6 fire damage in one of several areas out of a 4th level slot. An extra 10 damage plus pseudo grease is probably worth a +1 slot adjustment, and 3 feats had better give you more bang for your buck than the 1 feat for an un-mitigated empowered fireball, so in the grand scheme of things Arcane Thesis isn't all that bad in this instance.

 

[RangerWickett]

One of my favorite short-lived (and mechanically-shallow) characters was a 10th level dwarf sorcerer with Arcane Thesis (magic missile), the ability to cast spontaneously without extending casting time, and the spell Celerity.

And shiny full plate armor.

I was basically a disco-ball of death. My 5th level slots would be used on twinned empowered still magic missiles. My 4th level slots on twinned still magic missiles and celerity. My 3rd level slots were actually for utility stuff like dispel magic (albeit with a spell failure chance). 2nd level was empowered still magic missiles, and 1st was for still magic missiles. Not feather fall, though, which eventually was what killed me.

In a single round I could spend one 4th and two 5th level slots to shoot ten magic missiles that each did (1d4+1)*1.5, celerity for a bonus standard action, and do it again. A handy way to deal 60-140 damage with no attack roll.

Was I overpowered? I dunno. I could kill obnoxious single enemies in one round. The party's wizard could deal an average of 52 fire damage (Reflex DC 19 half) to a big swath of enemies, and he only spent one feat (Empower Spell) and one spell (fireball) on it, vs. my four feats and three spells.

 

[Queranil]

Well, picture this, a Sorcerer with much the same build that you had but instead of magic missile he throws lesser orbs of cold (with a quickended true strike form a wand, yes it is possible).
On top of that he has cone of cold with Arcane thesis, Piercing Cold (no cold resistance and those who have immunities receive half damage), Flash Frost (+10 damage and area coated with frost), Sculpted, Still and Empowered. We're level 12 now but his average damage is about 98,75 (save DC 21 or so for half), with one sculpted casting. Then he casts Celerity....Is that overpowered? I think so.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

That doesn't seem like that good a deal to me, but you're the DM...

You might consider limiting arcane thesis to affecting three metamagics per spell... Or possibly altering it more drastically (i.e. have it apply to an entire school of magic, rather than a single spell, but only reduce a metamagiced spell by a single level). or ban it completely.