Archivists with Wizard spells. Effects?

[Sound of Azure]

I want to allow archivists among the options for characters in Selan provided that they trained amongst the colonial culture, the Asturians. Archivists and clerics represent two arms of the same church, but with different traditions.

In a campaign that lacks druids, sorcerers, and wizards is it balanced to allow archivists to get wizard spells? What effects would this have?

The other casting classes are cleric (militant arm of the same church archivists come from), and the Spirit Shamans and Spirit Eaters from the native Selanese culture. I'm also considering allowing Shugenjas for characters from the northern empire.

Finally, I would like to give the archivist the "bardic knowledge" class ability in addition to its other abilities. Would this be unbalanced?

 

[smootrk]

One problem in simply opening the spell list is that one of your Archivists would be able to become a Mystic Theurge very quickly. Some specific wording must be used to denote that although the Archivist may select spells that are normally on the Wizard Spell list, the spells are treated as divine... or The Archivist may select spells from the Wizard or Clerical List, but due to manner in which they learn spellcasting, all their spells are considered Arcane in nature (this is the way that seems appropriate to the way of Archivists IMO - Archivist seem much like wizards albeit with clerical list).

One balancing factor for this might be to eliminate the Armour Proficiency from the Archivist. The bardic knowledge seems appropriate for Archivists, maybe with a narrower focus that deals with Religion, Planes, Spirits, etc (just examples, not knowing the whole concept behind your Archivist variant).

As another way to deal with adding wizard spells - take a cue from the ability that Dread Necromancers or Warmages have that allow them to add the occasional spell to their list. This would limit your Archivist to a few additional spells - although it does not make complete sense to me, since they keep a 'spellbook' of sorts.

A third option is to allow Wizard spells freely, but make the spells a level higher. IE. Magic Missile would be a second level spell.

 

[Nifft]

What's the difference between an Archivist who can cast Wizard spells and a Wizard who can cast Cleric spells?

1/ Archivists can cast in armor, right?
2/ Better HD & saves for Archivist, yes?
3/ Archivists have some nasty class features?

Basically... the limit in power is that the Archivist chooses his free spells from the Cleric list.

Why not allow Wizards access to all Cleric spells instead? Seems easier to balance, with the armor restrictions and all. Just say there's no Arcane or Divine magic, the two classes just have different spell lists, one of which is a subset of the other.

- - -

If you have removed Druids and the Druid spell list, then the Archivist is kinda hosed. His big trick is cherry-picking from the other four divine lists (Adepts have fantastic spells at low levels).

So adding in Wizard spells may be fair, but Wizard spells are better -- more general, less situational -- than Druid spells.

And, for some reason, casting them in armor bothers me.

- - -

So, how about a compromise? Priests shall be d6 HD, good Will save, primary casters who suffer from spell failure in armor heavier than Light. (Not "arcane" spell failure, just spell failure.) There shall be five kinds of Priest, each with access to a different slice of the Sorc/Wiz spellcasting pie:

Red: Cleric spells, Conjuration, Evocation
Blue: Cleric spells, Abjuration, Enchantment
Green: Druid spells, Transmutation, Enchantment
White: Cleric spells, Illusion, Divination
Black: Cleric spells, Necromancy, Conjuration

All magic is just "magic". Any magic-user who has a particular spell on his spell-list can use scrolls & wands of that spell.

Anyway. Three answers for one question.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sound of Azure]

What's the difference between an Archivist who can cast Wizard spells and a Wizard who can cast Cleric spells?

1/ Archivists can cast in armor, right?
2/ Better HD & saves for Archivist, yes?
3/ Archivists have some nasty class features?

Basically... the limit in power is that the Archivist chooses his free spells from the Cleric list.

Why not allow Wizards access to all Cleric spells instead? Seems easier to balance, with the armor restrictions and all. Just say there's no Arcane or Divine magic, the two classes just have different spell lists, one of which is a subset of the other.

Maybe so. It does seem more thematic for a scholar type.

If you have removed Druids and the Druid spell list, then the Archivist is kinda hosed. His big trick is cherry-picking from the other four divine lists (Adepts have fantastic spells at low levels).

You have a point, although it's not quite true. The archivists will be able to get hold of "druid" spells by interacting with the Spirit Shamans (who use spells from the druid list) and Shugenjas (who have their own spell list).

So adding in Wizard spells may be fair, but Wizard spells are better -- more general, less situational -- than Druid spells.

And, for some reason, casting them in armor bothers me.

Heh, me too.

So, how about a compromise? Priests shall be d6 HD, good Will save, primary casters who suffer from spell failure in armor heavier than Light. (Not "arcane" spell failure, just spell failure.) There shall be five kinds of Priest, each with access to a different slice of the Sorc/Wiz spellcasting pie:

Red: Cleric spells, Conjuration, Evocation
Blue: Cleric spells, Abjuration, Enchantment
Green: Druid spells, Transmutation, Enchantment
White: Cleric spells, Illusion, Divination
Black: Cleric spells, Necromancy, Conjuration

All magic is just "magic". Any magic-user who has a particular spell on his spell-list can use scrolls & wands of that spell.

Anyway. Three answers for one question.

Cheers, -- N

That's an interesting idea. I didn't notice that they had a good Fort save. That's just not right. Anyway, I've been tossing up the idea of eliminating the divine/arcane split. It's where this idea came from in the first place.

As for the M:tg splits of spell schools... interesting. It could work well.

One problem in simply opening the spell list is that one of your Archivists would be able to become a Mystic Theurge very quickly. Some specific wording must be used to denote that although the Archivist may select spells that are normally on the Wizard Spell list, the spells are treated as divine... or The Archivist may select spells from the Wizard or Clerical List, but due to manner in which they learn spellcasting, all their spells are considered Arcane in nature (this is the way that seems appropriate to the way of Archivists IMO - Archivist seem much like wizards albeit with clerical list).

Good point. All of the learned spells should be of the same type. If I implement Nifft's idea, above, mystic theurges will not exist (since there would be no arcane/divine split).

One balancing factor for this might be to eliminate the Armour Proficiency from the Archivist. The bardic knowledge seems appropriate for Archivists, maybe with a narrower focus that deals with Religion, Planes, Spirits, etc (just examples, not knowing the whole concept behind your Archivist variant).

Yeah, I think that's a must. It's starting to sound more like a wizard with the Archivist's class abilities instead. That's not a bad thing, though.

Re: bardic knowledge, I was comparing it slightly to the cloistered cleric's lore ability. It would be nice to have a back up for times when the archivist's prodigious Knowledge skills actually fail them (unlikely, but it could happen).

As another way to deal with adding wizard spells - take a cue from the ability that Dread Necromancers or Warmages have that allow them to add the occasional spell to their list. This would limit your Archivist to a few additional spells - although it does not make complete sense to me, since they keep a 'spellbook' of sorts.

A third option is to allow Wizard spells freely, but make the spells a level higher. IE. Magic Missile would be a second level spell.

Expanded knowledge? Hmmm, it doesn't quite sit right with me either.

The main restriction seems to be the monetary cost of scribing the spells. While spellbook scribing will likely be cheaper in my game, there'll be less available gold, too.

It sounds like it makes more sense to give the archivist free access the wizard list (that is, their free spells come from this list). Access to other spells must come from scrolls andbe scribed into the spellbook.

Thanks for the help.

---

So:

Archivist
d6 hd, good Will save, poor base attack bonus.
No armour proficiency (spell failure in armour). Wizard weapon proficiency.
At 1st level, access to all 0-level Wizard spells and 3 ist-level wizard spells. Gets two free wizard spells at every level; an scribe scrolls he comes across into his spellbook.
Scribe Scroll at 1st level
Lore (same as bardic knowledge)
Dark knowledge
Lore Mastery (at level 2, 7, 13, and 17)
Still Mind at 4th level
Bonus Feats at level 10 and 20.