Are ELADRIN attribute bonuses the MOST USELESS?

[Mistwell]

Indeed, Eladrin are probably my top choice for the PC tactical warlord. Trying to choose between Human and Eladrin.

However, Eladrin are only really solid for Tact warlords and Wizards. That's a rather small piece of the pie, since they are pretty much outclassed by the other dex races for Ranger and Rogue.

I disagree for Ranger. A hybrid Ranger with the twin strike at-will power and a bevy of weapons (two longswords, a longspear, and a longbow), and the Eladrin Soldier feat plus Quick Draw, will make quite a good flexible Ranger.

An Eladrin Ranger/Wizard with the Arcane Initiate feat will also work quite well.

 

[Fredrik Svanberg]

I could see Eladrin get +2 Str and +2 Int. If necessary I would balance this by dropping the +1 Will bonus. I'd give them +2 Str because they get Longsword proficiency and because it's a combo that works for a lot of classes.

 

[fuindordm]

There's more to life than defenses, isn't there?

A character with high Int, high Dex and the Jack of All Trades feat can be good at most of the skills in the game.

 

[clearstream]

Hello.

I wanted to ask the community - considering how INT and DEX now pretty much overlap i.e.

- Higher of both provides bonus to AC (with Light or No armor)
- Higher of both provides bonus to REFLEX Defence

The ONLY benefit of having high scores in both is some benefits to few SKILLS.

WORSE - no class, no build, needs high scores in BOTH INT and DEX. Rogues and Rangers are the two classes that require high DEX, but both get absolutely NO benefit from a high INT.

The Wizard needs a high INT and gets a minor, ONCE per encounter, attack bonus from high DEX, IF they use wands.

So is it just me or did Eladrins get the shaft with an attribute bonus is TWO VERY REDUNDANT categories i.e. INT and DEX?

Compare that with Dragonborns ... Paladins, Clerics, Warlords, Rogues ... ALL benefit highly from high STR + CHA.

Comments ...

If you look at Dragonborn, they're getting +Fort and +Wil. Eladrin are getting +AC and +Ref. Add that to a free skill pick and a great encounter power, and Eladrin are a very tasty race.

-vk

 

[Puggins]

Well, let's compare Eladrins to Humans. Let's skip the attribute bonuses for now.

Humans and Eladrins each get one extra skill. That's a wash.

Eladrin get +1 will. Humans get +1 to everything. 2 Points to humans.

Eladrin get automatic proficiency with longswords and longbows. Minor benefit that comes into play for certain classes and paragon paths. 1 point to Eladrin.

Humans get an extra feat. 3 points to humans.

Eladrin get +5 saving throws vs. Charms. Very nice, but situational. 1 point to Eladrin.

Eladrin get +2 to Arcana and History. Arcana is especially nice for ritual casting, but let's call it 1 point.

Eladrin have Fey Origin/Trance. I can't see either weighing too often. no points.

Humans get a bonus at-will power. Very nice. 3 points.

Eladrin get Fey step, which is even nicer than the extra at-will power IMO, since you're getting your third choice of at-will. let's call it 4 points.

Eladrin get low light vision. Let's call this 0.5 points.

Totals:
Eladrin: 7.5 points
Humans: 8 points

So humans are ever so slightly ahead in this completely arbitrary grading. Now let's talk about the attributes.

Humans are certainly more versatile. But clearly, any race that has dexterity OR intelligence as a prime attribute gives eladrins an advantage here, if only a small one.

Clerics: humans have the edge for certain.
Fighters: humans have the edge.
Paladin: humans have the edge.
Ranger: humans have the edge for melee, Eladrin for ranged. This is a wash.
Rogue: Eladrin have the edge.
Warlock: Humans have the edge.
Warlord: Humans have the edge for inspiring presence, Eladrins have the edge for Tactical Presence. This is a wash, with the tiniest edge to humans for their versatility in which score to pump in Tactical.
Wizard: Eladrin have the edge.

In two classes Eladrin have a clear edge.
In four classes Human have a clear edge.
One class is a wash.
Another is a wash with a slight edge for humans.

So are humans a better race than Eladrin? Well, it's difficult to say. Fey step is a big, big deal. I sorta think I might have undervalued it even at four points. I'd say as a whole humans win out, but there are four classes where Eladrins have advantages over them in certain builds, at least. That's not too bad, is it?

As for whether for the attributes in isoaltion, it's pretty clear that Eladrin bonuses are far superior to the human bonus in at least two classes.

 

[The Sword 88]

The DEX can be useful for a wizard since arcane reach requires 15 DEX and is a great wizard feat

 

[clearstream]

Well, let's compare Eladrins to Humans. Let's skip the attribute bonuses for now.

Humans and Eladrins each get one extra skill. That's a wash.

You need to consider that one closely. Humans get one extra skill off their class list while Eladrin get one extra skill off the skill list.

Eladrin wtfpwn humans on extra skills.

And then Eladrin get +1 AC, +1 Will, and +1 Reflex, while humans get +1 on all four or +2 on one and +1 on two. So that is closer than you make it.

Also, Eladrin make better Warlocks. Yes they are +1 behind on the Cha bonuses, but they gain hugely on the deceptive Warlock path. Not to mention the sheer awesomeness of blink-in/blink-out having extra free TP gives you. Erm, does that combo with Shadow Walk? Why, yes it does!

So that's three to three with two washes.

-vk

 

[Puggins]

You need to consider that one closely. Humans get one extra skill off their class list while Eladrin get one extra skill off the skill list.

Eladrin wtfpwn humans on extra skills.

Exceptional point.

And then Eladrin get +1 AC, +1 Will, and +1 Reflex, while humans get +1 on all four or +2 on one and +1 on two. So that is closer than you make it.

The +1 AC is situational. I'm actually of the opinion that the Eladrin is a fine, fine race that competes well against any other race for many classes. I was sorta skewing against them to make sure that I was unbiased as possible. So let's not count this.

Also, Eladrin make better Warlocks. Yes they are +1 behind on the Cha bonuses, but they gain hugely on the deceptive Warlock path. Not to mention the sheer awesomeness of blink-in/blink-out having extra free TP gives you. Erm, does that combo with Shadow Walk? Why, yes it does!

As above, I was trying to give humans an edge that they probably don't deserve in some cases, this being one of them. Good observations regardless.

 

[Klaus]

Hello.

I wanted to ask the community - considering how INT and DEX now pretty much overlap i.e.

- Higher of both provides bonus to AC (with Light or No armor)
- Higher of both provides bonus to REFLEX Defence

The ONLY benefit of having high scores in both is some benefits to few SKILLS.

WORSE - no class, no build, needs high scores in BOTH INT and DEX. Rogues and Rangers are the two classes that require high DEX, but both get absolutely NO benefit from a high INT.

The Wizard needs a high INT and gets a minor, ONCE per encounter, attack bonus from high DEX, IF they use wands.

So is it just me or did Eladrins get the shaft with an attribute bonus is TWO VERY REDUNDANT categories i.e. INT and DEX?

Compare that with Dragonborns ... Paladins, Clerics, Warlords, Rogues ... ALL benefit highly from high STR + CHA.

Comments ...

It's part of the Eladrin's balancing: they get bonuses to stats that overlap in usefulness. Same deal with the Warforged (Str and Con).

 

[Ahglock]

I think an Eladrin Ranger could be quite effective.

I think you are forgetting some feats that require the other stat, but which ordinarily wouldn't be high enough for most classes. Eladrins also make some of the best multi-class characters.

Feats are why any stat modifier is a big thing. 13 dex and 15 dex are nice points to hit to open up some good feats. By spending 2 points in dex on a point buy a eladrin wizard will have a 15 dex at level 11. Arcane reach is all kinds of awesome at requires that 15 dex. a race without a bonus to dex would have to put 5 points into dex to do the same thing. That is kind of cool.

And even outside of a wizard you get easier access to evasion, armor specialization chain or scale, and some other cool stuff. A +2 to dex is always cool, a +2 to int is always cool.