Are Gognards killing D&D?

[SteveC]

I'm not interested. I'm specifically referring to the posters who claim that "everyone" will be playing 4E.
I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I do feel that I have significant disagreements with the fundamental game design principles behind 4E, at least as far as the designers have communicated them.
For example, "No more dead levels" is EXACTLY OPPOSITE to what I want. "Your wizard should never have to fall back on a crossbow" is also antithetical to what I'd want in playing a wizard.
I have thought a lot about what I want in a gaming system, and my opposition is not some reflexive dislike of something new.

No problem. Anyone who says that everyone will be doing anything six months from now is speaking with a fair bit of hyperbole. I certainly wasn't saying that people don't have deep profound dislikes for what they've heard about 4E (which, quite honestly, isn't much yet). I'm simply saying, as I've said many times before, that most of them will be overcome by the shiny of the game and pick it up. I also trust the designers (especially Mike Mearls) to make a quality product. Will you do that? Well, I'll take you at your word and say, "no."

Frankly, if the complaints you list above (no dead levels and wizards always being able to do some magic) are at the core to what you want in D&D, I hope the designers do disappoint you, since I'm looking for a very different game than you are. I hope that both of us get what we want.

--Steve

 

[Lanefan]

Something that's occurred to me while catching up on the stupendous amount of reading this thread has generated since yesterday:

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if WotC decided to release 4e this year, 5e next year, and 6e the year after IF they would provide official support* to all the various editions, past and present, side by side. That way everyone gets something approximating the game they want; it's all still D+D, and WotC sells more material overall.

* - this could include sanctioning the RPGA to run any published edition, offering Sage Advice support for any edition, publishing modules/expansions/settings for all the various editions, etc.

Where they lose my vote is in the hard change...one month they only support 3e, the next month 3e is kicked to the curb and they only support 4e. Why not support both?

Oh, and for clarity: I represent most if not all of the quasi-established definition of a grognard - mid-40's, still play 1e (and 3e), dont like change unless it makes sense to me. I'll probably pick up the 4e PH and DMG not long after release, just to see what's there, but at this point I rather doubt I'll be playing or running it. (though it *could* still blow my socks off to the point where I convert on the spot...)

Lanefan

 

[EvilPheemy]

Well, I can tell you as someone who is 22, forty seems really old.

GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
(shakes fist menacingly).
Lousy kids... gots no respec'. No respec' at all...

 

[Maggan]

QFT. In fact, I'm a second generation gamer, myself.

So before anyone out there writes off grognards as irrelevant, consider this: those grognards might not be buying any new D&D products for themselves, but what are they buying for their children? And what will their children be buying over the next few decades?

Well, my bet would be that the children will buy the most recent version. I have a hard time seeing any kind of snowball effect where the new gamers hunt down old copies of AD&D or pdf versions of the game, when they have a new and shiny version on the shelves.


Sure, some will hand down the old AD&D books, and the kids will love them, but I think the majority will go with the latest edition. Whichever that is.

/M

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

Quoted for truth.

They've lost my purchases already, and honestly I do hope the 4e fails miserably.

Why?

Because I'd rather see Hasbro sell the rights off to someone like Kenzer and co who would do the game justice and bring the game system to a state where both new and old time gamers would be happy.

Never happen; Hasbro has a long-standing history of clutching their IP, even those they're not currently marketing, like grim death. You're saying "I want D&D to be locked away in a filing cabinet until it dies completely".

Have fun with WoW!

D&D has been successful because it was an adult game written by adults for adults. Read the 1st edition DMG and you see not just a 30+ year old writer, but a 30+ year old writer whose fondness for military, mythological, and historical esoteria makes him seem even older than that. EGG was a grognard in both the old and new senses of the term write from the time he published the game. You don't out grow military, mythological, and historical esoteria easily. You grow into it and with it. Getting the kids on board is the easy part. Keeping them more than a few years or a few sessions is the hard part. I love the look of anime. But I find I have a hard time retaining my enthusiasm as a I age. So it is with the style of gaming 4e seems to promote.

Naruta? I suspect you out grow that as painfully and easily (and all the more painfully because it is easy) as you outgrow 'Gatchaman', GI Joe, 'Land of the Lost' and all the rest of the stuff I thought was cool as a kid. It might not seem like it at 20 or even 25, but come back and talk when you are 30.

I'm sorry, is there some way this doesn't say "My tastes, honed on 1e, are enduring. Your tastes, should 4e appeal to you, are juvenile and you just need some more time to realize that"?

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

Nah.

There are some long-time players that are misliking the proposed changes, but age isn't much of a factor here... considered opinions are.

I started with BD&D in '79, skipped 2E, and came back for 3E. I am cautiously optimistic about 4E.

I have some grognardy opinons about what classes and races should be included in the PHB and am a bit hesitant about the power-creep that seems to be invading the rules, but these aren't cranky-old-man cliché rants. I have genuine concerns that the new rules must allow me to continue my play-style preference and preserve my campaign without massive retcons.

Even teens, new to 3E, are angered they won't be able to play their gnome druid right out of the gate, and think tiefling warlocks are too emo.

And no matter what your age... anyone can despise Golden Wyvern Adept as a feat name.

It doesn't take a Grognard to have a conservative opinon regarding how extravagant changes "should" happen in the next ruleset, it just takes someone to like the "way" they are playing right now. But no matter how slow or fast the game changes over time whether for good or ill... change is inevitable.

Since, RPGs are primarily a hobby of comraderie and creativity, whether the game sticks close to its roots or becomes a WoD&D wuxia mutant... grognards are not killing D&D... it simply will not die.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Have fun with WoW!I'm sorry, is there some way this doesn't say "My tastes, honed on 1e, are enduring. Your tastes, should 4e appeal to you, are juvenile and you just need some more time to realize that"?

Looking for a way to read this in a better light? Want some help? Try reading it like this...
"From my point of view, the way 4E is promoted serves to easily bring kids on board as new gamers, but doesn't look like it is made with keeping them in the game for the next 20+ years as well."

Which, considering there will most likely be a 5th edition in under 10 years, is maybe not TOO far from the truth either if you think about it. Gary Gygax probably didn't think there would be a need for a 2nd Edition of AD&D when he put together AD&D 1E, after all...it was the first BIG RPG project in the world of tabletop games, and there wasn't quite as much experience on how the market works as there is today.

See, it's not that hard to NOT read personal insults into the posts of others.

 

[diaglo]

They don't make money for WotC. They never have.

the thousands of dollars i spent per year consistantly on products beg to differ with you.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

Looking for a way to read this in a better light? Want some help? Try reading it like this...
"From my point of view, the way 4E is promoted serves to easily bring kids on board as new gamers, but doesn't look like it is made with keeping them in the game for the next 20+ years as well."

...and why is it presumed that it won't keep them?

Because of the assumption that given time they'll "grow out of" the tastes that drew them to 4e, while previous editions feed tastes that are appropriate for "mature" gamers.

Context, and the poster in question, are important.


To which I say bollocks, let me hit something with a mountain already.

 

[National Acrobat]

Kinda like Microsoft ending support for Win 98 and in short time XP as it has moved on to Vista?

The Windows OS analogy isn't a good one at this time, as Microsoft keeps pushing back the date to stop supporting XP because businesses are not buying Vista, mine included. The latest survey placed on 13% of US Businesses as having adopted Vista. XP still remains very popular with purchasers of computers, and Microsoft has acknowledged that they misjudged the reaction of the consumer to Vista.

Now, back to topic. I don't think dislike of a certain edition has anything to do with age. I've been playing dnd since the mid 70's, and I play 3.5. I think it has to do with comfort level, expectations and simply whether or not something appeals to you.

I like 1e and 3.5, and I have materials for both, but since I don't get to play regularly anymore due to time constraints, there isn't any incentive for my group to purchase all new rules and books when we can only get together once every 2 months to role play. Plus, we don't want to have to totally change our characters, which I have been told, won't convert, since we are in a 17th level game that has lasted for a long time.