Are meleerers unfairly penalized at high levels?

[Stalker0]

I've been doing a lot of reading of the MM1 and MM2 at the higher levels, and something has struck me.

There are a huge amount of high level monsters with nasty short range auras, and other effects that generally only hit people right next to them. In fact, many solo and elite monsters have powers that knock away, disable, or damage people that move in and strike them in melee.

Further, the prevalence of flying monsters increases at high levels, and frankly I don't know how any melee oriented party is supposed to deal with flying monsters that have ranged attacks.

Lastly, conditions tend to hinder melee characters more. Immobilized, Slow, and Dazed generally are far worse against people who need to get close than those who can blast from a distance.

While there is the occasional monster that deals a nasty surprise to ranged attackers, most of the harmful effects hit meleers. I'm starting to wonder if melee characters don't get enough love at the high levels.

Thoughts?

 

[Tremorsense]

I think this is a real non-issue. Monsters do more in close range because generally melee characters have much better defensive abilities. As for flying monsters, no character should ever be without a ranged attack option. This has always been true in D&D.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I se it as the monsters needing those extra defenses to keep two or three meleers from stomping them in a few rounds. Especially solos, who are typically up against 5:1 odds.

Ranged casters and archers just do not do the same damage as a good melee character. Sure, they can do it from safety, but it is just not the same. If the solo cannot stop the melee guys from whipping on him, supported by the second line guys giving bonuses and healing he has litle chance of winning.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

There are a huge amount of high level monsters with nasty short range auras, and other effects that generally only hit people right next to them. In fact, many solo and elite monsters have powers that knock away, disable, or damage people that move in and strike them in melee.

This serves to add to the tactical challenge of certain fights. Sometimes one PC will need to withdraw, while another might need to move forward and take their place. Just because one is a melee-focused striker doesn't necessarily guarantee they'll always be able to melee for 100% of a combat. Likewise, a ranged-focused PC sometimes needs to be prepared to step into melee.

Also, such melee-targetting critter powers are not used solely against melee-PC's 100% of the time. Smart beasts may manipulate the combat to bring their aura to bear on unsuspecting foes.

Further, the prevalence of flying monsters increases at high levels, and frankly I don't know how any melee oriented party is supposed to deal with flying monsters that have ranged attacks.

In 3.x it was the same. Once you hit the mid-levels, you'd better find a way to fly. Although the magic items and spells that grant flight have been noticably reduced, there are still plenty of flying mounts.

Lastly, conditions tend to hinder melee characters more. Immobilized, Slow, and Dazed generally are far worse against people who need to get close than those who can blast from a distance.

I agree in general. Though I'm not certainly it's a large issue. It can also fall the other way. If a ranged-PC is immobilized, and the critter then steps up next to him, he's going to be punished for using many of his powers and start taking all that aura damage you mentioned.

While there is the occasional monster that deals a nasty surprise to ranged attackers, most of the harmful effects hit meleers. I'm starting to wonder if melee characters don't get enough love at the high levels.

Define "love." Do you think they need higher defenses? More damage?

Personally I'm not sure either is true. Is there a need to normalize damage taken across all members of the party?

 

[Hereticus]

In the heroic tier, your character is already a hero, set apart from the common people by your natural talents, learned skills, and some hint of a greater destiny that lies before you. Your capabilities are largely determined by your choice of character class and to a lesser extent by your race. You move around on foot or on a relatively mundane mount such as a horse. In combat, you might make mighty leaps or incredible climbs, but you’re still basically earthbound. The fate of a village might hang on the success or failure of your adventures, to say nothing of the risk to your own life. You navigate dangerous terrain and explore haunted crypts, where you can expect to fight sneaky goblins, savage orcs, ferocious wolves, giant spiders, evil cultists, and bloodthirsty ghouls. If you face a dragon, it is a young one still searching for a lair, one that has not yet found its place in the world. One, in other words, that is much like you.

In the paragon tier, your character is a shining example of heroism, set well apart from the masses. Your class still largely determines your capabilities. In addition, you gain extra abilities in your specialty: your paragon path. When you reach 11th level, you choose a path of specialization, a course that defines who you are within a certain narrow range of criteria. You are able to travel more quickly from place to place, perhaps on a hippogriff mount or using a spell to grant your party flight. In combat, you might fly or even teleport short distances. Death becomes a surmountable obstacle, and the fate of a nation or even the world might hang in the balance as you undertake momentous quests. You navigate uncharted regions and explore long-forgotten dungeons, where you can expect to fight sneaky drow, savage giants, ferocious hydras, fearless golems, rampaging barbarian hordes, bloodthirsty vampires, and crafty mind flayers. When you face a dragon, it is a powerful adult who has established a lair and found its place in the world. Again, much like you.

In the epic tier, your character’s capabilities are truly superheroic. Your class still determines most of your abilities, but your most dramatic powers come from your choice of epic destiny, which you select at 21st level. You travel across nations in the blink of an eye, and your whole party might take to the air in combat. The success or failure of your adventures has far-reaching consequences, possibly determining the fate of millions in this world and even planes beyond. You navigate otherworldly realms and explore neverbefore- seen caverns of wonder, where you can expect to battle savage pit fiends, the ferocious tarrasque, sinister sorrowsworn deathlords, bloodthirsty lich archmages, and even demon princes. The dragons you encounter are ancient wyrms of truly earthshaking power, whose sleep troubles kingdoms and whose waking threatens the world.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thoughts?

I think it is very important to keep the issues straight:

You're mostly discussing "some epic monsters make it harder for melee PCs than for ranged PCs relative to other monsters".

But then you discuss "melee characters should get powerups" which is a completely separate issue which does not necessarily follow logically from the first assumption.

If the DM is always throwing monsters with ability X at the party, and there is a specific character Y who is especially vulnerable to ability X, the cautious solution isn't to make character Y stronger. It is to have the DM stop using so many monsters with ability X.

In other words, if this is a problem, it is likely so only for some campaigns, and "giving some love" to all melee characters will only make them overpowered in those other campaigns.

Personally, I think the appropriate analysis is this:

In any epic campaign (assuming your reading of the MMs is right), it is the responsibility of the melee-dependent character to be able to close to melee. Not the responsibility of the DM or the ruleset. As the DM, you only need to ensure you aren't withholding the tools that allow the PC to do his job. (Stuff like magic boots of flying or whatnot)

If the PC still goes ahead, perhaps optimizing on damage output solely, and ignoring his need to come to the monsters (rather than the monsters coming to him, as he might have gotten accustomed to during Heroic/Paragon play), then it's his decision and you as the DM can go ahead and make him pay...

 

[Stalker0]

I never said meleerers should get a power boost, I was just noting that their experience in combat seems to change at higher levels.

 

[AllisterH]

Hereticus' post has a good point...

By the time you hit EPIC, you either should be flying or should have some teleportation...

Looking through the character generator, there are a lot of options available for melee to get either flight or teleportation...

The only issue is that it seems to be highly dependent on class and race...A dragonborn for example seems like they hav eno problem getting flight, while an eladrin is teleporting like crazy across the battlefield...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

In 3.xE, if anything it's the archers that take it up the butt. Bows, slings, xbows, and (gods have mercy on you) thrown weapons just can't compete with melee at all for damage. And by mid levels, flight magic is cheap, and splatbooks introduced things like low level auto-full attack spells (benign transposition), Pounce at level 1 (Lion Totem Barbarian), and martial maneuvers to help get a full attack or escape one after delivering one (Sudden Leap, Quicksilver Motion, Pouncing Charge).