Are minions dangerous enough?

[Neonchameleon]

One of the thieves tricks is essentially Cleave. Free shift and str-mod damage to an adjacent enemy if you hit on your attack.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Actually, this is a WotC design flaw. All classes should have the ability to do certain things like multi-foe attacks. Granted, not everyone should be great at it, but everyone should have the option.

Most can. My rogue had as his 7th-level encounter a close burst power, the name of which I can't be bothered to look up right now. A thief could spend a feat and take that, of course. Whether or not the feat cost for the extra versatility is worth it

The problem is that once you use up your encounter powers, you're left with at-will powers, and most classes don't have a burst option out of their at-wills. That leaves the aforementioned Minion Grinder to be somewhat less pleasant after the first few rounds.

Of course, the entire point of the striker is that they do a lot of damage to ONE target. So it's not a big surprise that most strikers don't have good AoE options.

As an example, all classes should have the ability to do both ranged and melee attacks. It doesn't have to be a strong or even frequent ability to do both (historical example truncated!)

Some of the E classes are another case of WotC not looking at the big picture, but focusing instead on one set of specific mechanics.

To the best of my knowledge, most of the e-classes have that covered. Not as something they'd like to do all the time, but when needed, yes. Slayer, scout, berserker and blackguard can use a Heavy Thrown weapon for their RBAs. Melee thieves and executioners can use Light Thrown weapons. I haven't looked sufficiently at hexblades or binders.

Mages don't have a good MBA option, though that isn't a surprise. Warpriests really don't have either, though I think one of the domains let you use a bow. My warpriest had to rely on his Strength being his second stat for MBAs and RBAs. Not sure about Druids.

Brad

 

[KarinsDad]

That leaves the aforementioned Minion Grinder to be somewhat less pleasant after the first few rounds.

Which is why parties should prepare for this, especially after encountering it. As an example, a cheap Alchemist's Fire can handle some minions.

Of course, the entire point of the striker is that they do a lot of damage to ONE target.

Not necessarily true of the Sorcerer. They have a lot of burst and blast powers.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Which is why parties should prepare for this, especially after encountering it. As an example, a cheap Alchemist's Fire can handle some minions.

That is an option. It's not one that I like, because I've never found the image of flinging vials of alchemist's bleargh to be a particularly compelling one. In fact, I tend to forget I have those, because I dislike them so much.

But I do recognize that it is an option.

It's a better option not to do the minion-grinder.

Not necessarily true of the Sorcerer. They have a lot of burst and blast powers.

Well, that is true. They'll be the most likely to have more than one burst/blast power. They probably won't take the crappy AoE at-wills, but it's entirely possible that there are many more Dragon and Cosmic sorcerers than I'm willing to believe there are.

However, I'm pretty sure that if I had recorded all my damage rolls when playing my storm sorcerer, who had four encounter bursts and three daily bursts (three and two good ones...damn Lyrandar paragon path), that I still would've had more damage come from my Lightning-Admixed Acid Orb than any other power.

And besides, definitionally, that's what strikers *do*, is lots of damage to single targets.

Brad

 

[Dragon Sin-Camealot]

Minions are simply an idea to make the battle more challenging and/or interesting. Multiples coming every turn can be a problem. Though I've never died from a trap because those are only a minor inconvenience[FONT=Arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]

 

[cyphus5]

Making minions take more damage defeats the purpose of them. Combat encounters are long enough as is.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

 

[KarinsDad]

That is an option. It's not one that I like, because I've never found the image of flinging vials of alchemist's bleargh to be a particularly compelling one. In fact, I tend to forget I have those, because I dislike them so much.

Interestingly enough, this is mostly an issue with 4E. In 3.5 and earlier versions, players often prepared for the unexpected with consumable items, charged items, etc. Even the 10 foot pole was a PC staple in some versions of the game. But now, half the party can teleport, so 10 foot poles are out of vogue.

In 4E, the most prep ahead of time usually done is the Adventurer's Kit combined with a few rituals. Spamming powers is sufficient for nearly all situations, so when a situation like a ton of minions comes up, players are not prepared for it.

This isn't a problem with the game system or with the type of the encounter. It's a problem with lazy players who don't prep for the unexpected.

It's a better option not to do the minion-grinder.

The minion grinder is a perfectly valid and even challenging encounter design. Just because players do not prepare for it and are caught unaware because most of their powers aren't explicitly designed for it doesn't mean that there are not groups out there that do prepare for this.

I think it is very heroic for the PCs to hold off wave after wave of a ton of foes. What you call grindy (because your PCs are not prepared), I call fun and exhilarating and heroic.

Again, it's the spamming powers issue. If you don't have the right tool (i.e. power) for the job, it's going to be difficult and even grindy to get the job done.

Well, that is true. They'll be the most likely to have more than one burst/blast power. They probably won't take the crappy AoE at-wills, but it's entirely possible that there are many more Dragon and Cosmic sorcerers than I'm willing to believe there are.

Every sorcerer that I've played (and I usually play Storm sorcerers) and every sorcerer that I've played with took one of those "crappy" AoE At-will powers. Not just for handling a bunch of minions (which those crappy powers do a good job with), but for multi-target radiant damage or for multi-target fire damage with a bunch of elemental boosts.

However, I'm pretty sure that if I had recorded all my damage rolls when playing my storm sorcerer, who had four encounter bursts and three daily bursts (three and two good ones...damn Lyrandar paragon path), that I still would've had more damage come from my Lightning-Admixed Acid Orb than any other power.

And I could easily blow away Lightning-Admixed Acid Orb damage with Lightning-Admixed Burning Spray damage

Even if your PC had a Warlord handing you a free attack on some rounds, the extra target(s) every other round or so of Burning Spray would make up for the 1 average point of damage per round more for Acid Orb over Burning Spray combined with the small difference between the Warlord giving his attack to the Sorcerer and what the Warlord could do using the attack himself, or giving it to another PC.

Overall over a course of an average encounter, Burning Spray will do more damage than Acid Orb because every boost one could give to Acid Orb, one could give to Burning Spray. Granted, until one gains Arcane Admixture, there are a few more creatures with fire resistance than acid resistance, but that was more true when MM1 was the only monster book. Now, the number of each type of heroic level resistant monster is fairly equal, about 1% of all creatures in both cases, not worth worrying about.

And besides, definitionally, that's what strikers *do*, is lots of damage to single targets.

Again, not all strikers. Some smartly played strikers go out of their way to do lots of damage to more than a single target. I've even played Defenders who did more overall damage with burst powers than our optimized party Strikers have done. For nearly every time that a Striker does mega-damage and takes out 2/3rds of a foe's hit points, I've also seen a Striker waste a ton of damage on a foe that was already 2/3rds or more damaged and a non-Striker PC could have probably taken that foe out, allowing the Striker to focus on a less damaged foe.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

This isn't a problem with the game system or with the type of the encounter. It's a problem with lazy players who don't prep for the unexpected.

Heh, nice. OTOH, I'd be the first to admit that I'm lazy, and would prefer to do something fun, rather than, say, accounting.

Besides, one of our other players is big on accounting-style preparation and contingency planning, anyway, so he hands out the Alchemist's Bleargh as needed. It makes him happy to complain about us not preparing, so everyone wins.

I think it is very heroic for the PCs to hold off wave after wave of a ton of foes. What you call grindy (because your PCs are not prepared), I call fun and exhilarating and heroic.

Yes, dumping money on problems is not my idea of fun and exhilirating and heroic. But I'm sure that you enjoy it, so that's fine.

And I could easily blow away Lightning-Admixed Acid Orb damage with Lightning-Admixed Burning Spray damage.

Especially once you count the party members caught in the damage spread. That REALLY amps up the damage count!

Now, I perfectly recognize that getting two or more monsters in the burst is better than one when the damage output is more or less equivalent. Of course. But we don't all play in a perfect world where the monsters bunch up in a burst/blast for the sorcerer to nuke them without a care in the world.

As an example, my game was at low epic. We had 3-4 melee types, my sorcerer, and a bard, with an occasional wizard. The monsters tended to be Large, actively tried to avoid bunching, except around the melee, and enough of them tended to have the damage/screw-you auras that are so prevalent at epic levels that my going into Close Blast range was a poor use of everyone's time.

Even using War Wizardry, it would still be so likely that I'd hit the party members* that it was a choice of either take forever trying to place the attack to minimize damage (which is OH SO FUN for everyone else), accept the friendly fire and overburden the healer, or use accurate single-target at-wills to take down one target at a time. Given that the bard specialized in granting basic attacks, I went with the third option.

When conditions lined up for AoE, well, that's when I pulled out my encounters and dailies.

Had the campaign gone on, more minions shown up, and I had more resources to devote to avoiding friendly fire, then I might've retrained my second at-will to the Radiant one. OTOH, being able to reliably target Will with Chaos Bolt was generally more useful.

* - The usual attack bonus was +29. With War Wizardry, that'd be +24. The ranger's Reflex defense was about 26, and the fighter's was about 30.

Again, not all strikers.

No, seriously, look at the definition. Say, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, p. 35. Where the entire definition of their role says that strikers do lots of damage to single targets.

Of course, there are strikers that do AoE. Duh. But their overall job is to make things die, and it's better to focus fire things down than sandblast them.

For nearly every time that a Striker does mega-damage and takes out 2/3rds of a foe's hit points, I've also seen a Striker waste a ton of damage on a foe that was already 2/3rds or more damaged and a non-Striker PC could have probably taken that foe out, allowing the Striker to focus on a less damaged foe.

And I've seen those situations too. I've also seen situations where someone left the monster for someone else, and it recharged a power and ripped someone a new one. Death being the ultimate action denial, it's better to not skimp on damage than it is to worry about overkilling the monster and instead have it live to do something else.

Brad

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course, there are strikers that do AoE. Duh. But their overall job is to make things die, and it's better to focus fire things down than sandblast them.

Except when your sandblast is basically as powerful as your focus fire like in the case with Sorcerers. It allows you to be more creative with your Encounter and Daily powers, and still have Chaos Bolt and Burning Spray.

Course, it does help if your allies are willing to assist your PC and it sounds like your's weren't. Large (and larger) creatures take up a large area on the board and it's hard for at least two of them to not be within 10 feet of each other (and there are feats that can increase the area of a AoE). Sure, a crafty DM can try to keep them apart, but the problem with that is that when one has 5 large or larger creatures, the other creatures have to go somewhere if a front line exists. You typically cannot get 3 such creatures in a ranged burst, but 2 creatures is practically every turn. Again, your allies have to help with this (by shifting their PCs out of target zones or force moving enemies into target zones). They cannot try to often flank monsters and such, they have to form a line (which forces the monsters to form a line if the monsters are going to use melee attacks). Obviously, every situation is different, but I play AoE PCs a lot and rarely have problems except for the charging PC ally who thinks it's a great idea to finish his/her turn in the best spot to drop an AoE (and quite frankly, a charging melee PC concept is extremely common in the game). You just have to talk to that player out of game and ask politely if s/he could try to be a bit more judicious in the placement of his/her PC. But, most melee PCs tend to be next to monsters and can often attack and then shift in order to set up AoEs, and most controller/defender PCs tend to have some type of forced movement. At least IME.

I rarely run into the problem of friendly fire that you mention, mostly because my fellow players are usually tactically capable enough to take advantage of a re-occurring capability of my AoE Striker PCs. And, I agree with you that killing a badly wounded foe takes precedence over targeting 2 foes. It's just that there are still a lot of situations where targeting 2 (or even 3) foes is more practical.

 

[Hussar]

Count me in the camp that likes minions. I tend to design larger number encounters where I use more, smaller critters, and a handful of minions just spices things up nicely.

But, yeah, you gotta pick your minions. If the minion has no ranged attack, then you either need to pick a battlefield where he can get up into the grill of a PC pretty quickly, or he has some decent mobility in the first place.

I tend to view my minions as primarily skirmishers - give them a bit of ranged attack power of some sort, even if it's just a bow or a javelin in the hands of an orc drudge just so that the PC's can't pop them from a distance.

But, yeah, minions take a bit of care when used. Just dumping them on the battlefield without taking anything into consideration will generally see them get plowed over before they have a chance to do anything.