D&D 5E Are players always entitled to see their own rolls?

[muppetmuppet]

Imagine you had 5 players who walk into a room with a magic box for a game of d&d. The players simply sit down and state what their characters are and what they are doing, the magic box now states the outcomes of their actions and tells them things they can see in the world and what the other inhabitants of the world say.

Would this be an ideal d&d game if the box was very good at descriptions and the things that happened made sense?

Does it matter to the players that they never roll dice?

Does it matter if the box is actually rolling dice to determine the outcomes or just making it up?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Imagine you had 5 players who walk into a room with a magic box for a game of d&d. The players simply sit down and state what their characters are and what they are doing, the magic box now states the outcomes of their actions and tells them things they can see in the world and what the other inhabitants of the world say.

Would this be an ideal d&d game if the box was very good at descriptions and the things that happened made sense?

Does it matter to the players that they never roll dice?

Does it matter if the box is actually rolling dice to determine the outcomes or just making it up?

If the things that happen make sense to the players as well, in a way which empowers them to predict (to a large extent) the outcome of their choices, then that's fine.

The essence of player empowerment in D&D isn't rolling the dice, it's the predictability. When somebody hires the 13th level barbarian to kill a 0th level NPC smuggler and his two associates, and you get to the part where the barbarian has caught up to the smuggler, has passed his stealth rolls, and is lurking on shore waiting for them to come back... there is nothing wrong with just letting him say, "I will them all," without rolling initiative/attacks/damage/etc. If both the DM and the player know that a course of action is a guaranteed success at this point, there is no uncertainty and no need for detailed resolution including die rolls.

What makes it fun is if sometimes, say 10% of the time, the smuggler and his men turn out somehow not to be what they appear to be. Either they are surprisingly capable (11th level thieves instead of 0th), or you realize after you kill them that the "smuggler" is actually Prince Rupert, or he's got a Cape of the Mountebank that lets him escape, or there are actually a dozen more smugglers on the boat, or he melts into a puddle of black goo after you kill him...

 

[Xorne]

I play with a castle DM screen that has dice towers which dump in front of and behind my screen. When the players won't immediately know if their skill check succeeded (Insight for example), they roll in the tower and I see the result. (I also have across the bottom of the tower where a die can be rolled under the screen to me, then I flick it back out.)

When we play over a VTT (Fantasy Grounds) we use the built in dice tower. They drop their roll there, they see a shadow of their dice rolling, and I see the result.

It's not because I'm concerned about them meta-gaming--it's because it adds uncertainty that *we all want*. When I'm playing instead of DMing (rare, but it happens) I actually prefer to not know the result of my Insight check. If I roll a 1 or a 3, I know that my skill check was worthless. I can RP it accordingly--but I know that I failed my Insight check, and now I will be conflicted about further questioning. Would I be pressing this issue if I didn't know I failed the last check? Maybe--maybe not.

I'm even fine with the DM rolling behind his screen if a tower isn't available.

I also get just having the player roll, because it's more convenient, and not everyone has sweet-ass dice tower screens to use. If I say want to know if the guy I'm talking to is sincere and there's a die roll then the DM says, "He seems to be genuine," my next action isn't biased by me as a player. If I see the die come up a 1 and get the same response, my "RP" response should be to accept that this guy is telling the truth and move on, even if it seems fishy to me.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it also lets me fudge a successful check when stupid ass barbarian is the only one that stopped murder-hoboing long enough to look for a clue as to who is pulling the strings behind the scenes. I figured that 10 DC would ensure the guys with Investigation would find the clues, but now I want to reward HULK-SMASH for thinking for a few minutes, even if it's just because he wants to know where more people to kill and take their gold are hiding.

 

[Starfox]

I love it when my players roll a 30 for Sense Motive, and I can with a straight face say that the other guy seems honest... because he rolled a 31. I feel the player knowing what he rolled is a helpful tool for them.

But there are situations where secret rolls have their place. When the players causally search a room, or risk being ambushed, making hidden spot rolls makes sense.

For combat rolls and such, I simply cannot be bothered to do the math. I usually give them AC and difficulties straight away and the players say if they hit or miss without telling me their exact rolls.

 

[Lightfoot]

Whenever my rogue makes a stealth check I make him roll in the dice tower (in Fantasy Grounds). I tell him he slips into the shadows and moves forward...but he really doesn't know what his roll was. It builds the suspense of the encounter and since his roll does not automatically determines the outcome no one feels cheated when the orc guard turns around and spots him.

 

[TheFindus]

Whenever my rogue makes a stealth check I make him roll in the dice tower (in Fantasy Grounds). I tell him he slips into the shadows and moves forward...but he really doesn't know what his roll was. It builds the suspense of the encounter and since his roll does not automatically determines the outcome no one feels cheated when the orc guard turns around and spots him.

Three questions:
1. If the roll does not determine the outcome, why let him roll in the first place?
2. Do you use this method if the rogue is of high level and the orc guard is of lower level (say a 4 level difference)?
3. Do you use this method with any other character skill, say swordfighting or baking? What I mean is that you can see if you hit your opponent or if the bread turns out ok. Why is the Stealth skill considered a layperson's skill, with which you can never besure of the result?

 

[Blue]

There's times when I think a player shouldn't know they are making a roll (such as to notice a trap). But for anything the characters are doing in game they know if they are screwing it up or hitting it out of the park.

Anyway, I roll almost everything that interacts witha PC in the open when I DM - that's the game I play now. I used to like keeping players guessing, but now I'm for the system being open to them, and they are good enough to seperate player from character knowledge. Less stressful.

 

[psychophipps]

Of course they can see their own rolls. The fact that they do the rolling is one of the best tools for keep them from being ticked off at the DM if luck turns against them...

 

[transtemporal]

To elaborate. On reading the post by Elfcrusher about Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation and insight rolls, between PC's and NPC's, might it be appropriate in a heavily investigative campaign with lots of role play, that the DM might record the above mentioned skill bonuses of each PC and actually role for them?

Nah, always get them to make their own checks. If you want to create uncertainty about whether someone is a villain or not, occasionally ask them what x skill is and do a little mime of looking at your adventure and calculating something in your head, or ask them to make a random social roll for unimportant NPCs. Particularly if you want to throw a red herring in there.

I actually use the passive concept for a lot of rolls in the game, unless they're actively using the skill. History, Insight, Perception, Survival, Arcana etc etc.

 

[Lucas Yew]

If I'd do GM, I'll at least ensure that the players see their own dice FACE (seriously, why bring dice if you can't even physically see your own property?), but not the DCs or opposed check results of NPCs. Well, at least I NEVER fudge DCs thereafter, because I like them set in stone and watch the RNG based drama unfold.

And as this may often screw up elaborately scripted encounters, I find it ideal for me to set up campaigns using the Dungeon World "fronts" style (simply said, keyword based), to make the story flow even if the BBEG perishes prematurely.