D&D 4E Are rules lawyers having less fun in 4e?

[That One Guy]

Rules lawyering is alive and well. Because there are so many weak spots and contradictions in the rules a new type of rules lawyering exists - logic lawyering. One tries to convince the dm that while points A and B contradict each other (and clearly regard the same rule) A seems to work better w/ how the rest of the game works so it most be correct (or cite errata/posts on ENWorld to argue in one's favour).

 

[ki11erDM]

Well, if this forum was representative I'd say the rule lawyers are alive and well in 4E

I am not so sure I agree with that. I have been reading these boards with various accounts since before 3.0 came out and have always come here for rules info… and I have to say I see much less in the way of real rules questions know days.

I am sure that is because of the limited selection of books but I really don’t see many of the basic ‘obvious’ questions posted often. Or is that just my imagination?

And as for the rules lawyers I think the 4e system does a good job assuming you have a strong DM. If the RL is a stronger force at the table then you got a problem. At least that has been my experience.

 

[questing gm]

Well, if this forum was representative I'd say the rule lawyers are alive and well in 4E

QFT. I've noticed alot of rules lawyering in the word-bending department.

An Attack = attack.

 

[SadisticFishing]

I love it. Like refereeing a magic game.

 

[Orius]

Of course they are. Rules lawyers are not bound to any single edition of this or an other game. Granted, a rules lawyer might prefer a certain set of rules, but that's on an individual basis. No matter how many might prefer to stick with an earlier edition, some will switch to 4e if they haven't -- plus 4e will eventually spawn its own lawyers.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

4e seems pretty refined. Are rules laywers having less "fun" compared with earlier editions?

Rules lawyers who lawyer for the heck of it are generally fond of new game systems, because where there are new rules, there are new options for lawyering. Rules lawyers who lawyer for powergaming purposes may or may not like new systems; it depends on the GM (if the GM went and patched the exploits in the old rules, new rules give new opportunities. Otherwise, the old familiar exploits may be more popular).

 

[Daijin]

No such thing as rules lawyers in the Dunjon Universe

 

[Stormtower]

Lawyers are still alive in 4E, but IMO there are far fewer cases where the rules are truly ambiguous (caveat: haven't judged past 6th level so we'll see about Paragon and Epic tiers). One thing that is really refreshing though - and I hope it lasts - is the lack of multiple named stacking buffs. Lawyer/optimizers love to pick through online postings and splatbooks to combine the most broken synergistic combos in 3.X, polymorph subschool abuse (troglodyte alter self, I'm looking at you) and other such things. 4E is, for the moment, immune to such nonsense AFAIK.

The intentional, explicit language of DM empowerment and authority in the 4E books also helps, but a weak or abusive judge could use this to ruin a game just like a certain breed of rules lawyer does. As in all past editions, it comes down to table culture and communication about play expectations.

For organized play, I feel 4E will be a boon to judges because of the faster, cleaner and less ambiguous rules set.

 

[Runestar]

Bah! Back in 3e, we had to comb through multiple splatbooks and debate extensively on forums just to create a broken combo. Now, if anything, 4e can be broken just by playing a power exactly as it is worded. So you may be right in that there is lesser need for rules lawyering, because the bar for breaking the game seems to have been ratcheted much, much lower...

 

[Stormtower]

Bah! Back in 3e, we had to comb through multiple splatbooks and debate extensively on forums just to create a broken combo. Now, if anything, 4e can be broken just by playing a power exactly as it is worded. So you may be right in that there is lesser need for rules lawyering, because the bar for breaking the game seems to have been ratcheted much, much lower...

Not looking to pick a fight here, so don't read any snarky tone into what I'm about to ask. Can you provide a couple of examples of what you're talking about, in terms of broken-as-written 4E powers? I'm aware of the issues with Epic demigod destiny regeneration and certain cleric abilities. It seems to me that Epic was probably not playtested thoroughly, but again I haven't played or judged at that tier and I'm operating off assumptions from posts I've read.

At low levels, I'm just not experiencing the stuff you mention (for the record, I ran 7 slots at GenCon and 4E ran smooth as silk). Also, I love 3.X and my post(s) was not intended to be an sort of edition-war bait.

So, in terms of broken powers, what precisely are you speaking of? Specific examples would be great... even if it's just players trying to twist a perfectly unambiguous wording of a power into ULTIMATE COSMIC DOOM~!