Are the core (PHB) feats enough?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think there should be a few more high-level fighter feats, something that requires BAB +16 or so. Alas, there are only two high-level fighter feats in the book (Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization)... otherwise, fighters can get any feat, even Whirlwind Attack, by 9th-level. That's right about when some of the more powerful PrCs become available too, so there's little incentive to remain a fighter.

Complete Warrior had some neat feats, but they were just drowned in all the PrCs. Too often PrCs could have been turned into feats any fighter could use. Seriously, I'd love to see some fighter feats with pre-requisites so long you think you're taking a PrC.

 

[Tessarael]

Actually, you can't tumble untrained.

[..]

How can combat reflexes replace tumbling to avoid an AoO? Combat reflexes grants extra AoO's, it doesn't avoid them.

Err yeah, I meant Mobility. Fixed that.

By Tumble skill score of zero, I meant modified score of 0 (e.g. after armor penalties). So yes, as you can't use Tumble untrained, it is definitely worth putting at least 1 rank into it.

 

[Arthur Tealeaf]

Ever get annoyed because you want a feat of some kind that's not there? Then they are too limiting.
Never missed any feats (like me)? Then they are enough!

I think it's a personal matter, because someone will always want to do something there isn't a feat for, no matter how many they include. I'm happy with the feats in the book, but if the general gaming mass feels it is lacking, maybe they should have included more...

 

[Belen]

Err yeah, I meant Mobility. Fixed that.

By Tumble skill score of zero, I meant modified score of 0 (e.g. after armor penalties). So yes, as you can't use Tumble untrained, it is definitely worth putting at least 1 rank into it.

Is this nerf the rogue thread?

1.) Two-weapon fighting: You forget that you lose a chunck of attack bonue in order to get those extra attacks. You seem to ignore the fact that a two-weapon wielding fighter will always been better than a duel-wielding rogue. Yes, sometimes a rogue can get SN; however, a large number of creatures are not subject to crit, and a rogue needs to flank in order to get that SN in most combats where enemies are subject to crit, then you have fortified armor......

2.) Tumbling: Ok, you tumble at half move, then the DC is +2 per enemy, and do not forget those nasty penalties for tumbling in bad/ uneven terrain. In my experience, 3.5 tumble is far more useful for getting away, avoiding enemies with reach, or preventing yourself from being surrounded.

3.) Uncanny Dodge as a feat: So, you decided that Rogues should never be able to SN. Also, you want to give away one of their prime abilities to everyone. What would they get to replace it?

It sounds like you decided to boost one class at the expense of another.

 

[The_Gneech]

Gneech, how often do fighters in your group reposition themselves on the battlefield? Unless you have high AC, it is essential. I do think people underrate tumbling (it takes a bit to build to DC 15, and in armor you're taking a hefty penalty to Tumble - as Spatula pointed out). Once you can make DC 15 (hey you can do this 25% of the time at a skill score of 0!), it is worthwhile, but people forget to role for it if it's not on their list where they allocated skill points.

Well, the melee-types in my group generally tend to pound on one opponent until he's down, then move on to the next one, trying for flank whenever possible. However, we are generally outnumbered by ranged-types who just stay the heck away from anything remotely dangerous.

I guess it's just a matter of my own personal playing style that I like to play the run-all-over-the-field type rather than a sword-and-board tank type. (Barbarians, monks, Jedi, it's all good...)

-The Gneech

 

[Storminator]

Gneech, how often do fighters in your group reposition themselves on the battlefield? Unless you have high AC, it is essential. I do think people underrate tumbling (it takes a bit to build to DC 15, and in armor you're taking a hefty penalty to Tumble - as Spatula pointed out). Once you can make DC 15 (hey you can do this 25% of the time at a skill score of 0!), it is worthwhile, but people forget to role for it if it's not on their list where they allocated skill points.

Just soak the damage. Taking an AoO is not the end of the world. At low levels AC is usually better than attack bonuses, and at higher levels hit points are usually higher than damage per hit. If it's at the point where you really can't take a single extra attack without catastrophic failure, you're probably going to lose the fight.

The only really glaring holes I see in the PHB feats are the Divine feats from CW, and a similar style of feats that use the monk's Stunning Fist. Those are in Beyond Monks. With those two catagories of feats, I would find the PHB feats adequate.

Naturally, other feats can be cool. I'd particularly like to see some more niche feats that combine class abilities, such as Smite Favored Enemy, Arcane Strike, etc, that are specifically designed for multiclass builds. More of those would be cool.

PS

 

[Tessarael]

1.) Two-weapon fighting: You forget that you lose a chunck of attack bonue in order to get those extra attacks. You seem to ignore the fact that a two-weapon wielding fighter will always been better than a duel-wielding rogue.

3.) Uncanny Dodge as a feat: So, you decided that Rogues should never be able to SN. Also, you want to give away one of their prime abilities to everyone. What would they get to replace it?

1.) When flanking, a two-weapon Rogue will do more damage than a two-weapon Fighter vs. a moderate AC opponent (i.e. decent chances of hitting with multiple attacks, getting Sneak Attack in), even if the Fighter uses Power Attack.

My issue with two-weapon fighting (not Rogues!) is that (a) it requires too many feats, (b) it is inferior to using a two-handed weapon for almost everyone except a Rogue (you need to stack a lot of damage on the extra attacks to make two-weapon fighting worthwhile). Yes, the fix somewhat nerfs a Rogue using Sneak Attack. Sorry.

3.) This was Monte Cook's change in Arcana Unearthed. It will further limit how often Akashic and Unfettered characters can Sneak Attack.

Honestly, I think Rogues should get BAB +1/level and somewhat less Sneak Attack. Rogues were balanced for combats where they would be able to get Sneak Attack on a regular basis - so why take away their combat ability by having opponents immune to critical hits (common especially at higher levels).

A number of my other suggestions would power up Rogues actually. I was suggesting getting rid of Tumble affecting combat (or getting rid of the Mobility feat), and giving Rogues the Mobility feat in lieu of Tumble affecting combat. I also suggested that everyone be able to Weapon Finesse without paying a feat for the ability to use DEX for light weapons, Rapier, et al.

In general, my bias these days is towards simpler mechanics (fewer skills, fewer feats) and more generic classes (more bonus feats, class features being feats that can be chosen).

Just my thoughts ...

 

[hong]

Honestly, I think Rogues should get BAB +1/level and somewhat less Sneak Attack.

Congratulations! You have basically described a fighter/rogue.

Some of the classes push the limits of the archetype. A fighter does nothing but fight, a rogue has a total glass jaw, a monk has lots of magic, etc. To play a less extreme character, you should multiclass.

 

[Li Shenron]

Are the core feats too limited?

IIRC there are about a hundred feats in the 3.5 PHB. It seems a lot but we kind of notice these 2 problems most of the time:

1) some characters don't have feats more tied to their own class - this was definitely improved by 3.5, but still there should be more divine feats for example or more rogue-oriented or druid-oriented feats; in 3.0 a cleric just had to take combat feats (making him leaning towards the fighter role) or item creation/metamagic (making him leaning towards the wizard role), there was no feat to make him "more cleric" beside Extra Turning! He could always take generic feats (Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Toughness) but those are more feats that you take when you dont' have any better idea.

2) there are too few and too obvious feats paths - this is specifically critical for Fighters since they are all about feats. More or less, there are only 1 path of strength (root is Power Attack), 1 path of intelligence (root is Combat Expertise) and 2 paths of dexterity (archery and two weapon fighting). It would be nice if there were more paths to start with AND more branches to follow inside a path, and also more high-requirements feats for high-level fighters. The consequence of this reduced choice is that normally no one stays Fighter for 20 levels, because after a while there's not many feats left to take!

 

[Plane Sailing]

2) there are too few and too obvious feats paths - this is specifically critical for Fighters since they are all about feats. More or less, there are only 1 path of strength (root is Power Attack), 1 path of intelligence (root is Combat Expertise) and 2 paths of dexterity (archery and two weapon fighting). It would be nice if there were more paths to start with AND more branches to follow inside a path, and also more high-requirements feats for high-level fighters. The consequence of this reduced choice is that normally no one stays Fighter for 20 levels, because after a while there's not many feats left to take!

I think this is an excellent comment. It would be great if there were some clear Wis-based and Cha-based feats. Some of the "talent trees" from d20 Modern could have been pressed into this kind of mould, or examples taken from other OGL games (I know that Conan has some excellent flavourful combat feats based on other attributes).

And I second the general agreement that there could be some useful higher level feats to provide more variety for the top level fighters. Some options that come to mind might be "Improved Whirlwind Attack", requires BAB 15+, whirlwind attack and lets you get a primary AND a secondary attack against everyone adjacent to you (no using precise terminology here, obviously), "Decapitating Slash" (with equivalent for other weapon types) - BAB 15+, imp critical, regardless of your weapons crit modifier and threat range, if you score a critical hit with a roll of 20 then you get an automatic crit multiplier of x5.

I'm not suggesting that those off the cuff ideas are balanced or thoroughly developed - just thinking about how some logical extensions of existing feats could reach up into the high prereq arena.

Cheers